I am working on plans for an upgrade of my existing Celeron 433 mchine, now 3 yrs. old. Present focus is on an Athlon XP 1700, 256 DDR ram, GeForce 2 Ti 64 mb video, Creative Augigy Gamer sound, and some configuration of CD/CDRW/DVD as yet to be determined.

The objective, of course, is to be able to turn on (or up) as many display features of FS2K2 as possible while (a) maintaining a reasonably fast frame rate, and (b) staying as economical as possible.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be welcome.

William

• RE: Computer Upgrade,Madape, 23:08z, 01-12-02
  • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 11:41z, 01-13-02
    • RE: Computer Upgrade,Madape, 12:31z, 01-13-02
• RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 12:21z, 01-13-02
  • RE: Computer Upgrade,AlanParkinson, 13:43z, 01-13-02
    • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 14:13z, 01-13-02
    • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 14:17z, 01-13-02
  • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 14:37z, 01-13-02
    • RE: Computer Upgrade,James, 18:23z, 01-13-02
    • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 18:50z, 01-13-02
      • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 20:16z, 01-13-02
        • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 20:31z, 01-13-02
          • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 21:53z, 01-15-02
            • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 22:22z, 01-15-02
              • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 02:57z, 01-16-02
                • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 17:10z, 01-16-02
                  • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 02:42z, 01-17-02
              • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 23:23z, 01-19-02
                • RE: Computer Upgrade,James, 00:10z, 01-20-02
                • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 20:29z, 01-21-02
                  • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 22:13z, 01-22-02
                    • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 18:11z, 01-23-02
                      • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 21:22z, 01-23-02
                        • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 12:41z, 01-26-02
                          • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 14:49z, 01-26-02
                            • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 15:45z, 01-26-02
                          • RE: Computer Upgrade,Gunner, 01:57z, 01-30-02
                            • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 16:31z, 01-31-02
                              • RE: Computer Upgrade,Gunner, 02:34z, 02-03-02
                            • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 19:01z, 01-31-02
                              • RE: Computer Upgrade,Gunner, 02:35z, 02-03-02
                                • RE: Computer Upgrade,RayProudfoot, 14:04z, 02-03-02
                                • RE: Computer Upgrade,RickLee, 17:23z, 02-03-02
                                • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 20:48z, 02-03-02
                                  • RE: Computer Upgrade,PaulCroft, 08:03z, 02-05-02
                                    • RE: Computer Upgrade,WScofield, 17:20z, 02-06-02
                            • RE: Computer Upgrade,TD, 18:17z, 02-03-02

Hi William

Nice system you've got planned there although do you really need DDR Memory, firstly its expensive and tests have showed only a 4% increase in speed over SDRAM running at 133Mhz.

Cheers

Sam

Hi Sam -

>Nice system you've got planned there although do you
>really need DDR Memory, firstly its expensive and tests
>have showed only a 4% increase in speed over SDRAM running
>at 133Mhz.

Gee, I dunno. I heard DDR was faster, and simply thought faster is better. But I confess to not seeing any real studies about the difference. Haven't Intel motherboards also recently been moving to DDR ram, or is that just a marketing response to AMD? Can anybody comment who has any "real" experience?

William

Gigbyte, and ASUS have just released some new P4 motherboards that do support DDR Memory.

Check out:
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw

AND
http://www.asus.com.tw/mb/mbindex.htm

Sam

William,

You don't mention which mobo you intend to use. Those from Abit, Asus and Gigabyte are the best. PC Pro (UK) has a AMD mobo review in the next edition due in a week or so. You might want to hold off until then if you live in the UK.

You should consider buying 512Mb of DDR RAM. FS will greatly benefit and memory is very cheap.

If you can afford it the Athlon 1.9XP is out and would extend the useful life of your system. Admittedly more expensive but not inordinately so. I shall be building a system around that processor in the next month or so.

Other components sound fine.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

>You should consider buying 512Mb of DDR RAM. FS will
>greatly benefit and memory is very cheap.

Still cheap, but going up fast at the moment! Up 50% or more since this time last month.

Alan

Hi Alan,

Then the rumours I heard last October about it rising by up to 40% in the next few weeks weren't too far off. I took the opportunity to buy 2 256Mb PC2100 DDR RAM chips for £70 at a computer fair.

So what's the current going rate?

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Alan,

Belay that request! I've just visited www.dabs.com and it's £70 for a 256Mb 2100DDR chip. That's twice what I paid in October! For once I made a wise move

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

>You don't mention which mobo you intend to use. Those from
>Abit, Asus and Gigabyte are the best.

Some time ago, Mac Broughton (on CIS) recommended a motherboard with the VIAKT266A chipset. MSI has a model available are reasonable prices. Gigabyte has one as well.

>You should consider buying 512Mb of DDR RAM. FS will
>greatly benefit and memory is very cheap.

I have gone back and forth on this issue. Right now, a 512mb system costs about $80-100 more than a 256mb system, depending on where you get it. So your recommendation probably makes sense. Also, I do see prices going up - so it seems to be the opposite of the general situation in computer purchasing: "Hurry up and buy, before the price goes down!"

>If you can afford it the Athlon 1.9XP is out and would
>extend the useful life of your system. Admittedly more
>expensive but not inordinately so. I shall be building a
>system around that processor in the next month or so.

I would like to know more about the real-world difference between the Athlon 1700, 1800, 1900, and now 2000 cpu's. I see the numbers in some of the reviews. But does it really matter where it counts - namely, in framerate!?

>Other components sound fine.

I also wondered about the GeForce 3 64 mb sound card (which Norm recently got and seems to like a lot)- but I'm not sure whether price difference warranted.

And I go back and forth on the CD/CDRW/DVD issue. It's hard to know which decisions are pennywise but pound foolish in the long run.

Thanks for the input.

William

Hi WIlliam,

>> recommended a motherboard with the VIAKT266A chipset. MSI has a model available are reasonable prices. <<

They sure are good one's I have two

Regards,

James.

Hi William,

<< I would like to know more about the real-world difference between the Athlon 1700, 1800, 1900, and now 2000 cpu's. I see the numbers in some of the reviews. But does it really matter where it counts - namely, in framerate!? >>

Yes. It's the oldest rule in flight sim. Buy the fastest processor you can afford as it will always give you better frame rates. The grpahics card comes second by quite a margin.

I've decided on a GeForce3 but even if you stick with the GeForce2 you won't be disappointed providing the model has 64Mb of memory - that's a must.

As far as the CD/CDR/DVD issue is concerned it makes sense to buy a DVD-ROM drive (which also takes CDs) and maybe a writeable CD unit - rewriteable disks are expensive and not worth it (IMHO).

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

>Yes. It's the oldest rule in flight sim. Buy the fastest
>processor you can afford as it will always give you better
>frame rates. The grpahics card comes second by quite a
>margin.

Keeping things in perspective, the difference between 1700 and 1900 cpu's is $110. The whole system tops out at about $1400, depending on choices for HD, CD, etc. It's always a question of drawing the line. How does that compare with the UK?

I don't seem to save much if I buy the pieces and put them togther myself - so I think I'll let the reseller do it this time, and not worry myself about IRQ problems and the like.

Thanks.

William

>
>I've decided on a GeForce3 but even if you stick with the
>GeForce2 you won't be disappointed providing the model has
>64Mb of memory - that's a must.
>
>As far as the CD/CDR/DVD issue is concerned it makes sense
>to buy a DVD-ROM drive (which also takes CDs) and maybe a
>writeable CD unit - rewriteable disks are expensive and
>not worth it (IMHO).
>
>Regards,
>
>Ray Proudfoot,
>Cheshire, England

William,

I appreciate money can be an issue but if the difference between a 1700 and 1900 is $110 (about 65UKP) that wouldn't seem like a huge amount. When I bought my PIII-800 I was paying perhaps 80-100 UKP more compared to the next slowest - a PIII-733. I never regretted spending the extra. FS2002 will be with us for 2 years so that $110 works out at 13 cents a day extra. When you look at it like that it should be worth it.

I'm looking at 230UKP for the 1.8XP - that's around $320. Systems here retail for around 1200UKP for a top-flight one so I think you're getting a bargain especially if that includes building it - I build my own.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

While we're at it, let me throw a question at you. I have an opportunity to get a very good buy on a Compaq Presario 5430, which comes with an Intel P4 1800 Mhz cpu, 512 mb DDR ram, 80 GB HD, GeForce2 MX 64 mb video, integrated sound, DVD, CD-RW.

I know it's not quite the Athlon system I described, but presumably the video and sound could be upgraded later if it really was warranted. The cost savings is considerable.

Any opinion on the performance difference between this system and the Athlon.

TIA.

William

Hi William,

The spec is impressive with the exception of the P4 processor. I don't know of anyone who would recommend the Pentium ahead of the Athlon but if money is an issue and you are prepared to turn down some of the display settings in FS2002 it may be worthy of consideration.

Frame rates will be lower but I have no way of knowing by how much. If you are able to load FS2002 onto it and evaluate it before a purchase it would give you a better answer than I ever could.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

>Frame rates will be lower but I have no way of knowing by
>how much. If you are able to load FS2002 onto it and
>evaluate it before a purchase it would give you a better
>answer than I ever could.

I'm not looking scrimp, but don't want to pass by a potential bargain either. I doubt you've yet been able to update your frame rate survey for FS2K2, and the current crop of processors that are on the market. But I was hoping that someone with actual experience with the Athlon XP and/or P4 processors might jump in and share their experience.

Thanks.

William

Hi William,

As far as the FS2002 Frame Rate Survey is concerned I've written to Tim Gregson (formerly of the FS development team) asking if he can update FRATE.DLL for FS2002. I'm awaiting a reply. If we can get it updated I do hope to run a survey. It used to be useful for graphics cards but this time I think the processor would make for more interesting reading.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

>As far as the FS2002 Frame Rate Survey is concerned I've
>written to Tim Gregson (formerly of the FS development
>team) asking if he can update FRATE.DLL for FS2002. I'm
>awaiting a reply. If we can get it updated I do hope to
>run a survey. It used to be useful for graphics cards but
>this time I think the processor would make for more
>interesting reading.

That would cetainly be very interesting, and probably useful to many people.

In the meantime, who is out there with either Athlon XP or Intel P4 chips who would offer a comment about their performance?

William

Hi Ray -

>Frame rates will be lower but I have no way of knowing by
>how much. If you are able to load FS2002 onto it and
>evaluate it before a purchase it would give you a better
>answer than I ever could.

I have managed to get my hands on a system to evaluate that has a P4 1.8 processor, 512 DDR, GF2 MX 64 mb video, integrated sound. As mentioned above, it is not necessarily the precise set of spec's I might choose, but not altogether too shabby either.

So far, I have loaded MSFS2K2 on the computer, and tried a few test flights around Meigs, NY, and Boston. Frame rates are generally in the mid to upper 20's, although they will dip if certain settings are maxed out.

I'd like to know of any suggestions to really test this system, and compare its performance against the system I am thinking of ordering, with Athlon 1900+ (or 2000+ ?), GF2 Ti (or GF3 Ti) video, SB Live 5.1 (or Audigy Gamer) sound. And suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

William

Hi William,

Set your frame rates at Max 25 and turn every thing to MAX and see what you get.

James.

William,

I would go along with James's suggestion of setting all graphics options to max with the exception of dynamic scenery (medium) and visibility (90 miles). However, given the inaccuracy of the default frame rate counter it will be difficult to determine the true fps.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

Well, I did as suggested, and played with the P4 1800 for a day or two. Then I returned it. Not that its performance was all that shabby, but I found some interesting information by poking around on Avsim and some other sites. I also got hold of the 3DMark 2001 benchmark utility, and gave it a whirl.

It turns out that this computer had a relatively slow graphics card (GeForce 2 MX 100/200), which hampered both the benchmark performances as well as FS2K2. Let's be clear that I was being deliberately picky. But it wasn't getting anywhere near the benchmarks I saw for some more advanced cards.

Ultimately I concluded that this machine was a false bargain, and would cost more in the end to upgrade than if I just bit the bullet and went for what I wanted in the first place.

So, I ordered the new machine today: Athlon 1900+, MSI VIA K7T266-Pro2 mobo, 512 DDR ram, GeForce 3 Ti 200 64 mb video, SB Audigy Gamer sound, Seagate 60 gb 7200 HD. Won't be in for a week. A very long week I suppose it will be at that!

Regards,

William

Hi William,

At least now you can relax knowing that you have at least tried the P4 and although the graphics card wasn't the fastest proved that it would have been a purchase you may have regretted.

The spec of your new system sounds very close to the one I'm planning to get although I'm hoping that if I can hang on another month or so the 2.0Ghz processor will be available.

Time well spent I would say.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray -

I thought about the XP 2000+, which is available here, but decided that the 1900+ would be fine. (I am still mulling it over, however.)

I haven't yet seen any reviews of the 2000+, but the write-ups on the 1900+ indicate it should certainly do the job, and generally be as fast or faster than the comparable P4. Besides, another month or two and there will be a 2100+, and then a 2200+, and so on down the road. There is always a balance between cost and benefit.

Anyway, between the new computer, and the multi-monitor/computer stuff everyone is talking about, there should be more than enough fun!

Regards,

William

Hi William,

You're quite right in that it is very easy to upping the spec and the danger is of course that you never end up buying anything! <g>. I have no doubt whatsoever that you have the making of an excellent machine which will do you proud for the next two years.

In the meantime I'm still enjoying my PIII-800 which performs admirably except for complex airports where the frame rates are too low for realistic taxiing.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Thanks, Ray.

I am grateful for the opportunity to have access to the crew around here, to help offer guidance and suggestions.

Regards,

William

William,

You're very welcome!

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

>> You're quite right in that it is very easy to upping the spec and the danger is of course that you never end up buying anything! <<

Ha! Story of my VCR life. In the early 80s I knew I "had to have" a VCR. I subscribed to two of the magazines and read each cover-to-cover each month. I kept upping the spec of what I wanted... one day about a year later I realized I had this great collection of video tape equipment magazines... and... no VCR. I stood up, squared my shoulders, zipped up my pants, and went out and bought one that day.

Research is great, but at some point ya gotta do what ya gotta do <g>

Have Fun! (tm)
-= Gunner =-

Written by Mike Thompson in Jacksonville, Florida

>Research is great, but at some point ya gotta do what ya
>gotta do <g>

Well, the new 'puter is s'posed to be ready for pickup tomorrow. Hopefully I can get there - as an ice storm is headed our way (not a problem you would know about in Jacksonville).

We all know that the processors and graphics cards will be faster and cheaper ikn the future - but that shouldn't detract from our having fun with what we have today!

Regards,

William

>> an ice storm is headed our way (not a problem you would know about in Jacksonville). <<

Hey! We had an ice storm here in December of 1989... about an inch of ice with about a half-inch of snow on top. I knew we were in trouble when the mayor showed up on TV and told us not to worry, they would keep the streets and bridges open. Seems they owned a grand total of two sand trucks. Remember Jacksonville is the largest city in the U.S. in terms of land area. I told my bride they couldn't keep the airport open with two sand trucks. Turned out I was right an hizhonner was wrong. City was closed down for most of two days! Of course the terrible driving was partly responsible...

<sigh>

Have Fun! (tm)
-= Gunner =-

Written by Mike Thompson in Jacksonville, Florida

Hi Gunner,

And the moral of the story is .... "Don't buy a BetaMax VCR"!!!

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

>And the moral of the story is .... "Don't buy a BetaMax
>VCR"!!!
>
>
>Regards,
>
>Ray Proudfoot,
>Cheshire, England

Another case of advertising winning out over technical superiority!

Have Fun! (tm)
-= Gunner =-

Written by Mike Thompson in Jacksonville, Florida

Hi Gunner,

<< Another case of advertising winning out over technical superiority! >>

How true. We had a similar situation with TV satellite providers about 10 years ago. The smaller British Satellite Broadcasting (with D-MAC pictures and digital sound) lost out to Rupert Murdoch's then inferior analogue Sky service and has now been merged into that company.

However, things have recently got a lot better with the transmission of digital pictures from Sky (plus digital 5.1 sound for films for a further premium plus purchase of new hardware). All major British free-to-air terrestrial broadcasters are now carried on the Sky package with the added bonus of widescreen! I believe we lead the world in this which amazes me.

Perhaps the ailing Health Service should be handed over to Murdoch?

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

>>Another case of advertising winning out over technical superiority!<<

MYTHOLOGY ALERT!!

It was actually a case of giving the customers what they really wanted. VHS was the first to give the customer 4 hours of recording time (at a lower cost) which was more important to the average consumer than marginally better image quality.

I hope I haven't started something.

Rick Lee www.rickleephoto.com

>Another case of advertising winning out over technical
>superiority!

Well, I don't about technical superiority, but I can tell you (from the new 'puter, up and running for 24 hrs.) that THIS is the WAY TO FLY! Man, oh man, have I been missing something. I don't know how this system compares to others (I don't trust everything the benchmark programs say), but turning up the graphics and still hitting the frame rates turns this program into a whole other experience.

I shoulda done this a long time ago!

Regards,

William (who has never owned a BetaMax)

Hi William

>> Well, I don't about technical superiority, but I can tell you (from the new 'puter, up and running for 24 hrs.) that THIS is the WAY TO FLY! Man, oh man, have I been missing something. I don't know how this system compares to others (I don't trust everything the benchmark programs say), but turning up the graphics and still hitting the frame rates turns this program into a whole other experience. <<

I got my new computer 2 weeks ago now and it's great isn't it? Mine's got the Athlon 1900+ processor and nVidia GeForce 3 Ti500 card and nothing slows it but it highlights what a mess the MS 747-400 is. The update rate on the panel is still just as slow as with the AMD 800MHz this PC replaces.

I'm not sure whether I like winXP yet. I've no doubt it's a more solid OS than 98SE and the way it handled my hardware was nothing short of amazing. This is how all the upgrades should go. After I'd connected the bits together and switched it on I started adding all my hardware, one piece at a time, and everything was recognised, everything works. Amazing. I love the way it set up my network too. Just follow the wizard and away it goes.

However, there are one or two things that really annoy me.

1. For my work there are times when I need to do a multiple floppy disk copy - I teach IT part time at the local Tech and need 30 floppies all with the same files on them so I create one floppy then disk copy to the other 29. Under win95 and 98, at the dos prompt I could type 'diskcopy a: a:' and, after the first copy, I was given the option: 'Do you wish to make another copy of this disk?', so answer yes to that, shove in the next floppy and that too would be written too. Now, under XP, after the first copy is done the prog starts all over again, asking for the source disk once more before the target disk. Why?? In heavens name all the data is there in ram. The previous version of diskcopy.com already did this. Why change a perfectly good little program for something fundamentally worse

2. I left a floppy disk in the A drive on Sunday last. Needless to say, the PC failed to boot but, instead of that useful message all previous versions of windows has given, telling you there's a floppy in the A drive with no system files on it, all winXP says is: 'NTLDR failed to load'. Great. Took me over 2 hours to find the cause. Big source of aggro and hugely unimpressed. Another decidely backward step. Sure, I'll know where to look next time I see this message but what a pain in the butt. Am I the only one left who uses floppies these days?

Anyway, now let's get back to the seriously good scenery that's available with this system ...

Paul Croft
10 miles south east of LHR

Hi Paul -

>I got my new computer 2 weeks ago now and it's great isn't
>it? Mine's got the Athlon 1900+ processor and nVidia
>GeForce 3 Ti500 card and nothing slows it but it
>highlights what a mess the MS 747-400 is. The update rate
>on the panel is still just as slow as with the AMD 800MHz
>this PC replaces.

I generally use the smaller aircraft that are more similar to what I have actually flown. So I am less familiar with problems with the 747 panel.

>I'm not sure whether I like winXP yet.

So far, I am still trying to find stuff that I knew where it was in Win 98 or 2000. I don't particularly care for the overall impression the MS has concealed most things in the OS so the user can't get to it. I resent being told, for example, that I should not be able to see the files on my own computer, let alone touch them.

>Why change a perfectly good little program for something
>fundamentally worse

I couldn't agree more. Sounds like a step backward. But at least the floppy is still there. It disappeared entirely on my Mac G4!

>Needless to say, the PC failed to boot but, instead of
>that useful message all previous versions of windows has
>given, telling you there's a floppy in the A drive with no
>system files on it, all winXP says is: 'NTLDR failed to
>load'. Great.

I haven't had this experience yet, although I'm sure I will. Thankfully, I will remember your experience.

>Am I the only one left who uses floppies these days?

Could be! (See above)

>Anyway, now let's get back to the seriously good scenery
>that's available with this system ...

Which is, after all, the point!

Regards,

William

>>> You're quite right in that it is very easy to upping the spec and the danger is of course that you never end up buying anything! <<
>
>Ha! Story of my VCR life. In the early 80s I knew I "had
>to have" a VCR. I subscribed to two of the magazines and
>read each cover-to-cover each month. I kept upping the
>spec of what I wanted... one day about a year later I
>realized I had this great collection of video tape
>equipment magazines... and... no VCR. I stood up, squared
>my shoulders, zipped up my pants, and went out and bought
>one that day.
>
>Research is great, but at some point ya gotta do what ya
>gotta do <g>
>
>Have Fun! (tm)
>-= Gunner =-
>
>Written by Mike Thompson in Jacksonville, Florida

I, for one, am glad you zipped your pants before going out to buy a VCR. It is better than spending the money on bail for an indecent exposure charge...

"TD - Virtual FAA investigators are on line 2, AGAIN!!!"