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jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Overspeed?" 04-07-02, 16:05z  Hi Everyone, I like to fly the classic airliners, and have been getting to know a Vickers Viscount, produced by Tony Lewis for Fs98/2k. In Fs2002, I've got the weights about right, and the aircraft flies well, but although the economic cruise is 316kts, and in aircraft.cfg the reference cruise speed is set at 399kts (I upped it from 349kts), the overspeed warning comes on at 260kts IAS/380kts ground speed. Can anyone tell me what governs the overspeed setting in Fs2002, so I can set it correctly for this aircraft? As will be obvious, I know nothing about any aspect of aircraft design, but don't mind learning a little. Thanks and regards, Jim Hamilton Using **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.4.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-07-02 1    RE:Overspeed? jimh 04-08-02 2    RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-10-02 3         RE:Overspeed? jimh 04-13-02 4              RE:Overspeed? jerryrosie 04-13-02 5                   RE:Overspeed? jimh 04-13-02 6                        RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-14-02 7                             RE:Overspeed? jimh 04-14-02 10                                  RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-14-02 12                             RE:Overspeed? jerryrosie 04-14-02 13                                  RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-16-02 17                        RE:Overspeed? jerryrosie 04-14-02 8                             RE:Overspeed? AlanParkinson 04-14-02 11                                  RE:Overspeed? jerryrosie 04-14-02 14                             RE:Overspeed? jimh 04-14-02 15   RE: Overspeed? alanpugh 04-14-02 9    RE: Overspeed? jimh 04-14-02 16

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AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-07-02, 17:41z  Hi Jim, I'm afraid I can't give any hints about overspeed settings in FS2002 as I'm still stuck at the FS98 stage. The Viscount was the first aircraft I ever flew on, and I've just recently found an FS5 version in Aer Lingus colours similar to the one I flew in. I've not yet had much opportunity to check its performance or behaviour, but as the world's first production turboprop airliner, I think you're asking too much of it! This is an extract from the readme for the one I have, a Viscount 700 (Original FS5 model by Wilber Williams & Ross Gridley Aer Lingus re-paint by Carl Zoch): "AIRSPEED LIMITATIONS The normal design speeds are given below:- Normal Operating Limit Speeds 238 knots IAS 46,000lb 227 knots IAS 47,000lb 0-15,000 ft 220 knots IAS 48,000lb reducing to 190 knots at 35,000ft. Never exceed speed 260 knots IAS 0-15,000 ft, reducing to 210 knots at 35,000ft. Range of speed in turbulent air based on 66 ft per second gusts. 155-185 knots IAS. Maneuvering Speed 164 knots" As you can see, Vne (the maximum speed you should EVER go) is the same speed that your overspeed warning sounds. Elsewhere in the readme, the author quotes Jane's, saying cruise at 20,000 feet should be 321 mph. This equates to an indicated speed of only 203 knots in standard atmospheric conditions. I'll have to try and find that one by Tony Lewis, I'd prefer one intended for FS98. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-08-02, 18:54z  Hi Alan, Thanks for your very informative reply. I have no info on the Viscount beyond what I found in the readme for the aircraft I downloaded. The download is bavct7.zip - 3.5mb, and can be found at flightsim.com, Fs2000/aircraft. I converted the aircraft with Fsedit to Fs2002. I know nothing about editing/converting aircraft for Fs2002, which have been designed originally for earlier versions of MSFS. Since I am particularly interested in older British aircraft, I'd like to know a lot more. I've got a Vanguard I haven't tried yet, and like the Viscount I have no basic info to start off with. I've copied below, an extract from the aircraft.cfg of bavct7. As you can see the figures are quite different from yours. I was extremely surprised that the economic cruise speed should be so high. I remembered that the flying time from Guernsey to Glasgow was around 1.5 hours, which seemed to reflect a much lower speed. Your figures look a lot more likely to be correct. >>FS2000 British Airways V.701 Viscount package. Performance ------------ Max cruise spd: 324 kts Economic cruise speed 316 kts Max cruise altitude 28,500 ft Max Range 970 statute miles Powerplant:4 Rolls Royce Mk.506 Darts, at 1547 shp each Stall Speeds........ 1. 100 kts with 0 Flaps and gear up. 2. 94 kts with 10 units Flaps and gear down. 3. 84 kts with 35 units Flaps and gear down. This is with the V.701 model.<< Copy of your figures: Normal Operating Limit Speeds 238 knots IAS 46,000lb 227 knots IAS 47,000lb 0-15,000 ft 220 knots IAS 48,000lb reducing to 190 knots at 35,000ft. Never exceed speed 260 knots IAS 0-15,000 ft, reducing to 210 knots at 35,000ft. Range of speed in turbulent air based on 66 ft per second gusts. 155-185 knots IAS. Maneuvering Speed 164 knots" I don't insist on having the correct panel for each aircraft, as I find it more important to be able to see the instruments and the figures on them, than to know I am looking at the original layout, but I do like to feel that the virtual aircraft is flying as near as possible to the performance of the real thing. Do you have any data for MTOW, Fuel Capacity, Empty Wt. or Zero Fuel Wt., No. of Passengers? I have Dave March's Flight Deck Companion, and would like to have a good performance file for the Viscount for use in that programme. The takeoff and landing performance is, of course , dependent on the loading of the aircraft. Regards, Jim Hamilton Using **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.4.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-10-02, 19:21z  Hi Jim, Like you, all the info I have is from the readme. I could quote some more from that file, but that would be pushing the definition of a reasonable quotation for copyright purposes. It's probably better to forward the complete aircraft zip to you. It's not very big, about 130k > can see the figures are quite different from yours. I was extremely > surprised that the economic cruise speed should be so high. I wonder if the difference is because one of the aircraft authors has converted mph True to knots Indicated, whilst the other perhaps assumed that the same figure was already knots IAS? > Since I am particularly > interested in older British aircraft, I'd like to know a lot more. > Do you have any data for MTOW, Fuel Capacity, Empty Wt. or Zero Fuel > Wt., No. of Passengers? The file I'll send you has info on weights, passengers, crew, fuel etc so you should be able to work out all the weights you want. > I don't insist on having the correct panel for each aircraft, as I find > it more important to be able to see the instruments and the figures on > them, than to know I am looking at the original layout, but I do like to > feel that the virtual aircraft is flying as near as possible to the > performance of the real thing. Yes, a perfectly realistic panel that's so small you cant tell the ASI from the Altimeter isn't very much use, I've had a few of those. One difficulty with this OLR is that your email address isn't visible, I'll have to log on through the web to find out where to send the file. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-13-02, 10:17z  Hi Allan, Thank you very much for the zip. The readme is the most informative I've seen, and gives me all the weights I was looking for. In carrying the specified weights over to Fs2002, there seems to be an anomaly around the fuel figures. I'll try to set out some figures below, to see what you, (or anyone else who is looking in) thinks. All my thinking is based on the assumption that Fs2002 uses the US gallon. Max Fuel Wt. (Jane's) 11,000lbs Fuel Capacity (Jane's) 1,950 UK galls. If max fuel load = Capacity, 1 gallon would weigh 5.64 lbs (too light) , so max fuel load must be less than capacity. If I knew the weight of a gallon of fuel, it would help here! (Help Someone!) 1UK gall. = 1.2009502 US galls (from tables) Therefore fuel capacity in US galls 2,342 US galls. Wt. of 1 US gallon = 6.699219lbs (from Fs2002) 11,000lbs/6.699219 = 1642 US gallons Therefore max fuel load in US gallons 1,642 US galls. Which would be 70% of capacity I would have thought that maximum fuel load would have been much nearer the capacity of the tanks. At the moment I have 16500lbs max fuel in my Viscount, which now seems far too much. Any thoughts? Regards, Jim Jim Hamilton Using **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.4.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-13-02, 14:48z  > If I knew the weight of a gallon of fuel, it would help here! (Help > Someone!) > > 1UK gall. = 1.2009502 US galls (from tables) > Therefore fuel capacity in US galls 2,342 US galls. > Wt. of 1 US gallon = 6.699219lbs (from Fs2002) > 11,000lbs/6.699219 = 1642 US gallons > Therefore max fuel load in US gallons 1,642 US galls. > Which would be 70% of capacity What you have appears to be fairly close. Bob Gardner's "The Complete Private Pilot" gives the following weights for weight and balance calculations: Gasoline 100LL - 6 pounds per gallon Oil - 7.5 pounds per gallon Maybe someone else can come up with more accurate figures, since the 6 pounds per gallon seems like too 'rounded' a figure to be more than a 'rule of thumb' figure used in estimating fuel weight...... ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) 18.8NM W of KMDT on 271.2 radial. **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-13-02, 15:52z  Hi Jerry, Thanks for the info. In the Viscount's aircraft.cfg, the fuel is Type2, which I think is JetA (note that I know nothing worthwhile about aviation fuel) In Fs2002\aircraft\fuel dialogue box, 1 gal US is given as 6.7lbs approx. Converted to UK gals, 1Uk gal = 8.05lbs, which seems quite near,from experience with less exotic fuels, petrol, paraffin, diesel. Divided into the 11,000lbs max fuel load of the Viscount, this gives a max fuel load of 1366 Uk gals, which is 70% of the 1950 Uk gal. total fuel capacity of the aircraft. I'm going uselessly round in circles here, because I can't believe the maximum LOAD would be so much less than maximum CAPACITY. Maybe I'm completely wrong, and too stupid to realise it! The best solution may be to load the virtual aircraft with 1642 gallons US, and see what range I get. If it is anything like the real world range, then the fuel load must be ok. Regards, Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 01:48z  Hi Jim, I've just had a quick look back at the viscount.txt file, and think I have your answer. > Max "Zero Fuel" weight 49,000 lb. > Max. all-up weight 60,000 lb. i.e. 60,000 - 49,000 = 11,000 lbs of fuel. As you've probably concluded, the true situation is not this simple (but it's not too complicated to understand either) Assuming that the quoted figures are correct (what else can we do) this means that the aircraft is designed to fly at a maximum weight of 60,000 lbs. Any more than this, and the structure would be at risk of damage in any load-increasing manoeuvres such as tight turns or raising the nose rapidly, or battling through turbulence. You have assumed that the designers would simply add fuel capacity upto the maximum weight, and no further, but in fact the designers allow for the case where the weight of passengers is traded off against an increased weight of fuel, to obtain a greater range. The overall weight of the aircraft remains at or below 60,000 lbs, but with fewer passengers, and more fuel. Thus the tanks are bigger than might be expected at first glance. I seem to remember someone in the old FSForum suggesting that it's possible in FS2000 and/or 2002 to change the passenger load carried; I can't confirm it as I don't run either of these versions. If it is possible, the standard weight of a passenger for loading purposes is, I think, 90kg, though when the Viscount was designed, that would probably have been an Imperial Measure equivalent, perhaps 200lbs, or 6 slugs (= 193 lbs). Your estimated 8.05 lbs/UK gallon sounds about right. If 11,000 lbs is 70% full, then full tanks would require a passenger reduction of 24 persons at 90kg each. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 11:23z  Hi Alan, Thank you very much for your assessment. I'm sure you are right all the way through. It all seems to fall in place now. I think I have allowed myself to get so immersed in the arithmetic, that there was no room for logical thinking. In Fs2002 there is a Weight and Balance section in the aircraft.cfg. Mark Lyons produced a weight calculator, with which you can choose no. of pax, and wt. of fuel and cargo. The calc has a .ini file with reference data. All weights are in pounds, and pax are assessed at 160lbs each. The calculator edits the aircraft.cfg, ready for the planned flight. thanks again, Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 13:50z  Hi Jim, > In Fs2002 there is a Weight and Balance section in the aircraft.cfg. > Mark Lyons produced a weight calculator, with which you can choose no. > of pax, and wt. of fuel and cargo. Ah, yes, that sounds familiar. Looks like you're on your way now. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 13. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 18:47z  > You have assumed that the designers would simply add fuel capacity upto > the maximum weight, and no further, but in fact the designers allow for > the case where the weight of passengers is traded off against an > increased weight of fuel, to obtain a greater range. The overall weight > of the aircraft remains at or below 60,000 lbs, but with fewer > passengers, and more fuel. Thus the tanks are bigger than might be > expected at first glance. A most elegant explanation! Kudos!! ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) 18.8NM W of KMDT on 271.2 radial. **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 17. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-16-02, 18:26z  Hi Jerry, > A most elegant explanation! Kudos!! Thanks. Sometimes it comes out the way I want it, others I waffle round and round the subject, confusing everyone in listening distance. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 01:51z  > Maybe I'm completely wrong, and too stupid to realise it! > The best solution may be to load the virtual aircraft with 1642 gallons > US, and see what range I get. If it is anything like the real world > range, then the fuel load must be ok. > That's kinda like what they do in the real world - Run one tank dry, note the time of flight, and come back home on the other one...... ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) 18.8NM W of KMDT on 271.2 radial. **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

AlanParkinson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 13:49z  Hey Jerry, > That's kinda like what they do in the real world - Run one tank dry, > note the time of flight, and come back home on the other one...... That's OK so long as you have the headwind component on the outward leg, not the return. I remember getting caught out like that in my microlight once or twice. At 28 knots airspeed, it doesn't take much change in wind to throw all your calculations out of the window. Great fun yesterday, eh? Obviously, I need to get voice communications running, typing messages in flight is asking for trouble - every time I tried to type a message, I did it with FS the active window, and when I wanted keyboard input to FS, the message window was active. It's no wonder something switched off my joystick, causing me to spiral uncontrollably into the ground. My thanks to all, I think I learned that it's not as difficult as I expected. Alan **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jerryrosie Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 14. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 18:48z  > That's OK so long as you have the headwind component on the outward leg, > not the return. I remember getting caught out like that in my microlight > once or twice. At 28 knots airspeed, it doesn't take much change in wind > to throw all your calculations out of the window. The secret here is to stay within sight of the airport so you can glide home if necessary > Great fun yesterday, eh? Obviously, I need to get voice communications > running, typing messages in flight is asking for trouble - every time I > tried to type a message, I did it with FS the active window, and when I > wanted keyboard input to FS, the message window was active. It's no > wonder something switched off my joystick, causing me to spiral > uncontrollably into the ground. My thanks to all, I think I learned that > it's not as difficult as I expected. Certainly was great fun and somewhat impressive what the programming can do. At one point Craig was parked behind me and I could look out the rear window and see his prop turning...What was the saying? "As real as it gets" I lost the voice about half way through because I was trying to reconfigure it "on the fly" and the keyboard typing is a real turnoff. I had the same problems you did but with less disastrous results. With the 'chat' window active, it was impossible to trim the aircraft - all I ended up with was a long string of 7777777777's which would have made any controller on frequency wondering what it was I was trying to say. All I wanted to do was to trim down a bit to relax the forward pressure on the yoke required to keep the plane level It was more fun for me, in that Ben, graciously, let me host the first try at it and I chose KMDT which is familiar territory for me. I have made that landing on Rwy 13 many times in real life and know the approach well - at 2500 feet a 500 fpm descent, started just after crossing the turnpike bridge across the river will bring you in every time We need to do that again - ConMan's project of getting folks to host a "tour of their area" has great potential if everyone can get on voice.... The folks who developed and tested and fielded the Flight Rooms programming are to be commended! They have made it very easy to have fun! ***Reality - the refuge of those who can't handle simulation*** Cheers, Jerry (N94) 18.8NM W of KMDT on 271.2 radial. **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.5 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 15. "RE:Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 18:57z  Hi Jerry, >>That's kinda like what they do in the real world - Run one tank dry, note the time of flight, and come back home on the other one......<< That's what I need to do. Get more practical! Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

alanpugh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 11:04z  Hi Jim, Have you seen the Viscount on Tom Gibsons web site? http://members.aol.com/TGFltsim/ The Planes Viscount It's an FS98 Continental Viscount 812 by Dave McQueen updated 10/10/98 The flight model may be of no use but there may be some good documentation (havn't checked it myself) Alan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jimh Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 16. "RE: Overspeed?" 04-14-02, 19:11z  Hi Alan, Thanks for the suggestion. I downloaded the Viscount from Tom Gibson's site. It had very little documentation, but I've saved it anyway. I think I'm getting there with the Viscount now, and the discussion here has cleared my head for tackling a similar problem in future. On the subject of MSFS aircraft designed for earlier versions, I seem to have heard that MSFS own FsEdit can spoil the flight characteristics of previously successful aircraft. I've tried a search for an alternative, but without success. Cheers, Jim Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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