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Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "ILS w/o DME" 03-04-02, 16:54z  Hi all, it seems to me that in FS2000 and now as well in FS2002 there are some airports with have ILS but no attached DME. I think in FS98 that was not the case. So, is this just closer to reality? Or do I miss some important point? Regards, Guido **** OLR.PL Build 1.70 **** Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE:ILS w/o DME PeteDowson 03-04-02 1    RE:ILS w/o DME Guido_Ostkamp 03-09-02 2         RE:ILS w/o DME vgbaron 03-09-02 3              RE:ILS w/o DME James 03-09-02 4                   RE:ILS w/o DME Guido_Ostkamp 03-10-02 8                        RE:ILS w/o DME James 03-10-02 10              RE:ILS w/o DME TD 03-10-02 11         RE:ILS w/o DME PeteDowson 03-10-02 5              RE:ILS w/o DME Guido_Ostkamp 03-10-02 9                   RE:ILS w/o DME PeteDowson 03-11-02 14         RE:ILS w/o DME PaulCroft 03-11-02 13   RE:ILS w/o DME Ben Chiu 03-10-02 6    RE:ILS w/o DME Guido_Ostkamp 03-10-02 7         RE:ILS w/o DME Ben Chiu 03-10-02 12

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PeteDowson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-04-02, 17:49z  > Hi all, > Hi Guido, > it seems to me that in FS2000 and now as well in FS2002 there are some > airports with have ILS but no attached DME. I think in FS98 that was not > the case. > > So, is this just closer to reality? Yes, very much so. Many ILS's have no co-located DME, especially those at airports which have a VOR/DME on site. The approaches needing DME values are performed using DME measurements from that VOR or another in line with the runway. If you are doubtful about any specific ones, let me know which and I'll check them on my charts. I don't have very up to date data, but mostly it is okay. Regards, Pete **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.1.1 **** BETA 1.0 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.68 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-09-02, 21:07z  Hi Pete, > Yes, very much so. Many ILS's have no co-located DME, > especially those at airports which have a VOR/DME on site. > The approaches needing DME values are performed using DME > measurements from that VOR or another in line with the > runway. Thanks, so I will have a problem in aircrafts with a panel which don't have a display for Nav2. I have another problem with ILS in FS2002. Maybe you have some advice for this one as well: I am in a the default Learjet 45 at N48 14.18', E11 29.83' at 4000 ft with 130 KIAS approaching runway 22 Oberpfaffenhofen, Germany. Nav1 is set to ILS at 110.50 with OBS 223. Gear is down, flaps at 8. Autopilot is on with speed hold to 130, alt hold 4000 ft and approach mode is activated as well. Localizer already caught, now expecting to catch glidescope. After a while, approach mode disables alt hold. Now I expect to be taken down on the glidescope, but what happens is that suddenly the glidescope indicator goes up again rapidly, the plane instead continues to descend. Result is mostly a crash. Nearly the same situation in FS98 with Europe 1 Pro scenery works without problems. Any ideas? Regards, Guido **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-09-02, 22:04z  Guido - From MS - Intercepting a Glide Slope Although some real-world autopilots are capable of capturing a glide slope from above, for safety reasons standard operating procedure is to intercept and capture a glide slope from below. Thus, many real-world autopilots can only capture a glide slope from below, and the autopilot system modeled in Flight Simulator 2002 can only capture a glide slope from below. If you want to intercept a glide slope from above, descend through it, level off, and push the APR button twice to disengage and reset approach mode. Then intercept and capture the glide slope from below. > After a while, approach mode disables alt hold. Now I expect > to be taken down on the glidescope, but what happens is that > suddenly the glidescope indicator goes up again rapidly, the > plane instead continues to descend. Result is mostly a > crash. > HTH, Vic **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

James Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-09-02, 23:54z  Hi Vic, Guido, Yep, FS2002 is as is in that the Auto pilot respondes and acts like the real thing You need to capture the App Loc from below. I've found a lot of problems within Europe . Not gonna say any thing until others do Regards, James. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 10:49z  Hi James, > You need to capture the App Loc from below. I am sure I did. Otherwise I believe, the autopilot would not have automatically disengaged the ALT HOLD. Regards, Guido **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

James Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 13:09z  Hi Guido, >> I am sure I did. Otherwise I believe, the autopilot would not have > automatically disengaged the ALT HOLD. << Hmmm, another clitch in the works Join the club I have problems to with all sorts of things and can't pin point them as yet. Regards, James *** Wishing you all lots of pleasant and enjoyable flights *** **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TD Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 18:48z  so to do this properly, you cannot fly into the path? I am not sure about the use of "above" and "below" and may look like an idiot here (not the first time), but it almost sounds like what you are describing is the same thing, no distinction. Perhaps it is me, but I see the only way to capture a glide slope as starting from a trench or trying to fly into a mesa strip... >Guido - > >From MS - > >Intercepting a Glide Slope > >Although some real-world autopilots are capable of >capturing a glide slope from above, for safety reasons >standard operating procedure is to intercept and capture a >glide slope from below. Thus, many real-world autopilots >can only capture a glide slope from below, and the >autopilot system modeled in Flight Simulator 2002 can only >capture a glide slope from below. If you want to intercept >a glide slope from above, descend through it, level off, >and push the APR button twice to disengage and reset >approach mode. Then intercept and capture the glide slope >from below. > > >> After a while, approach mode disables alt hold. Now I expect >> to be taken down on the glidescope, but what happens is that >> suddenly the glidescope indicator goes up again rapidly, the >> plane instead continues to descend. Result is mostly a >> crash. >> > > >HTH, > >Vic > > > > > > > **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** >red] BETA 2 **** >**** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** "TD - Virtual FAA investigators are on line 2, AGAIN!!!" Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PeteDowson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 01:40z  Hi Guido, > Thanks, so I will have a problem in aircrafts with a panel > which don't have a display for Nav2. For approaches which require you to use DME, yes. but not all or even many ILS approaches do so -- for timing and minimums in poor visibility you use the timer in relation to your altitude, or in very low visibility go to your alternate as your instrument landing will not be valid. > I have another problem with ILS in FS2002. Maybe you have > some advice for this one as well ... You give all the details, but it would be much easier for me to check if you send the Flight (.FLT) file for that situation for me to try. I don't know how far away you are nor whether you are above or below glideslope. That is the most important thing. Regards, Pete **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.1.1 **** BETA 1.0 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.68 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 10:49z  Hi Pete, > > I have another problem with ILS in FS2002. Maybe you > > have some advice for this one as well ... > > You give all the details, but it would be much easier for > me to check if you send the Flight (.FLT) file for that > situation for me to try. I don't know how far away you are > nor whether you are above or below glideslope. That is the > most important thing. I think I am below the glidescope. I shall assemble a FLT file and send it to you - thanks for the offer! Let's discuss the results here later. Regards, Guido **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PeteDowson Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 14. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-11-02, 15:11z  Hi Guido, > I think I am below the glidescope. I shall assemble a FLT > file and send it to you - thanks for the offer! Let's > discuss the results here later. Okay ... I tried your approach. Several points: 1. You are very heavy (nearly full tanks). I don't know what the maximum landing weight figures are for a LearJet, but I emptied them down to about 20% in each of the three tanks. When the aircraft is too heavy it is not easily controlled, and I think the autopilot won't cope. This is certainly true for the airliners, whether it applies to business jets too I don't know. 2. The speed is therefore rather high too (this follows from the higher weight). I tried it with the approach speed knocked down to 120 and reduced it to 110 on finals. Even that might be a tad too fast. 3. I applied more flaps -- down to 40 at the final stages. With this, the approach was okay except for the very last 500 feet, when I took over manual control. I don't much like the Learjet modelling (never have <G>), and I really don't think it is good enough for an autoland attempt in any case. If I hadn't taken over the landing would have been a little bit short (by 100 yards or so I think), and heavy as FS doesn't do a flare. During the approach the Learjet was still slow to manoeuvre and so went through the slope initially, then overcorrected and went beneath it before levelling a bit and getting back onto it. On the final few hundred yards the glideslope isn't any use here anyway. I think the Lear modelling sucks. Maybe there are some better AIR files out there? I repeated the approach using an aircraft I know better -- the 737-400. With correct flap settings, air speed and weights the approach was much easier, with a perfect landing <G>. Really I think it is down to getting everything set correctly, early enough, and lowering flaps and airspeed and so on at the right times. I've never been able to do this with the Lear in any case! <G> Regards, Pete **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PaulCroft Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 13. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-11-02, 08:38z  HI Guido > I have another problem with ILS in FS2002. Maybe you have > some advice for this one as well: I've noticed this problem too, not in the Learjet because I don't fly that much, but in the 747. What appears to happen, at least for me, is that the sim adjusts the trim too slowly so that, by the time the plane's trimmed for a downward 3 degree glide, the glideslope is now too far below the plane and the glideslope capture is lost. Result: the plane is now descending down and through the glideslope from above and fails to re-capture it. The only solution I've so far found is to approach from below as before but, when the glideslope indicator starts to move, disconnect the alt hold, adjust for, say, an alt of 1500 ft less, select a v. speed of about 200 fpm then re-connect the alt hold. As the plane now descends adjust the v. speed such that, when the plane meets the glideslope capture, it is already descending at about 500 fpm. With a less radical difference in current descent rate and glideslope descent rate I have a much better success rate at glideslope capture. Maybe not very real worldish but it keeps me on my toes. Before I figured this out I'd crash the 747 every time on approach - usually with a descent rate of at least 3000 fpm ( Paul Croft 10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL) **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 04:12z  > it seems to me that in FS2000 and now as well in FS2002 there are some > airports with have ILS but no attached DME. Greetings Guido: DME is not a required component of an ILS system. ILS include the localizer (horizontal guidance), glideslope (vertical guidance), and marker beacons (distance distance). If you have an approach plate (which legally you need to have onboard to attempt an approach), you don't need DME. Hope this helps! Ben **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Guido_Ostkamp Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 10:49z  > DME is not a required component of an ILS system. ILS > include the localizer (horizontal guidance), glideslope > (vertical guidance), and marker beacons (distance > distance). Thanks, Ben. I just feel better when I know, how far out I am. I sometimes used the DME readout to decide when to lower the gears, flaps schedule etc. On the approach charts one almost always find hints which altitude one should have at a certain distance. Guess, this stuff is then impossible to check if not related to the markers. Regards, Guido **** OLR.PL Build 1.73 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE:ILS w/o DME" 03-10-02, 21:23z  Greetings Guido: > Thanks, Ben. I just feel better when I know, how far out I > am. I sometimes used the DME readout to decide when to lower > the gears, flaps schedule etc. On the approach charts one > almost always find hints which altitude one should have at a > certain distance. Guess, this stuff is then impossible to > check if not related to the markers. The procedure I teach is to stabilize the airplane in approach configuration (gear down, approach flaps setting) before intercepting the LOC. It works pretty well. Ben **** VPC OffLine Reader Version 3.0.3.0 **** BETA 2 **** **** OLR.PL Build 1.72 **** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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