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maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "LCDs and FS2002" 01-04-02, 06:30z  Inspired by the excellent FS2002, I'm thinking of buying an EIZO 18inch LCD, mainly for flightsimming. It's main features are: Max res. 1280x1024 (I'm happy with that) Pitch: 0.28x0.28mm Contrast ratio 350:1 Viewing angle 170x170deg Brightness 200cd/m sq But having had my ear to the ground about LCDs I'm a bit concerned about hangover smearing on moving scenery and the visibility of dud picture elements. Before I part with the lolly would any user of FS2002 on an LCD care to comment on their suitability for flightsimming (compared to CRTs) and give me any appropriate advice, svp? Happy new year to all, Maurice Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-04-02 1    RE: LCDs and FS2002 Tarmack 01-04-02 2         RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-04-02 3         RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-05-02 5         RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-05-02 6    RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-05-02 4         RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-06-02 7              RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-06-02 8                   RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-06-02 9                        RE: LCDs and FS2002 Mike_Greenwood 01-06-02 10                             RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-07-02 12                                  RE: LCDs and FS2002 Mike_Greenwood 01-07-02 14                                       RE: LCDs and FS2002 jonahbird 01-07-02 15                                       RE: LCDs and FS2002 Gunner 01-07-02 16                                       RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-08-02 17   RE: LCDs and FS2002 PaulCroft 01-06-02 11    RE: LCDs and FS2002 maurice 01-07-02 13

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jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-04-02, 07:44z  Hi Maurice This is only second hand info, based on advice given in the old forum. I understand that the LCD/TFT screens have a noticeably slower refresh rate than the CRT (perhaps that is what causes the smearing), and my plans to get one are deferred until the Spring when I understand a newly developed TFT (by Mitsubishi?) is due to be marketed. They have overcome the refresh rate problem. Someone better informed than I will no doubt chip in. Regards Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Tarmack Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-04-02, 11:28z  Maurice and Frank, I run 8 TFT/LCD monitors in my home cockpit setup and do not experience smearing as you mention. I took the extra expense of buying these monitors because they are so much easier to place "in a row"..ie....they need much LESS space for their locations...and because they generate so much LESS heat than a regular CRT type monitor. With prices now in the 300 dollar range...I do believe that they very worth those dollars. The brands include Viewsonic, Prosonic and Multiscan. Regards, Cap'n Tarmack Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-04-02, 17:31z  Hi Mel Yes, the space factor is a big plus and is the reason why I want to add a screen in that format. I now remember the source of my info - it was Mac in the hardware section in the recently deceased Gamers forum. I must try to find his post on the subject. Best regards (8...EIGHT...screens!!) Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-05-02, 17:14z  Hi, Cap'n, Eight monitors! It's no wonder that the heat generated is a consideration for you. If your LCDs don't display serious smearing on outside slewing views and they perform similarly to current LCD technology, that's encouraging. I might have to buy the Eizo one on trust. It's not the end of the world, anyway, if I come unstuck. I could put four legs on it and stand my coffee there. Thanks for your comments, Maurice. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-05-02, 17:19z  Cap'n, I misdirected my reply to you. See below. M. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-05-02, 17:03z  Hi, Frank, The EIZO scanning fequency (quoted as such in the spec) is, presumably, the same as picture refresh rate and is said to be 75Hz max at 1280 res. But it seems to me that even if the picture is renewed as fast as this it doesn't necessarily mean that the screen elements can change their light output at the same rate. If the screen elements are not able to keep up with the 75Hz picture renewal then, I suppose, this can result in smearing on moving pictures. Is that right? I don't see any screen element light decay rate mentioned in the spec so I would have to take it on trust that the smearing would not be objectionable. The company doesn't answer its e-mails, either (who's surprised at that!) It's not really practicable to see one of these displays working on FS before I buy. Thanks for your comments. Would you be able to give me any info on the new TFTs? Maurice. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-06-02, 05:14z  Hi Maurice I think I've uploaded my text file on this to the File Adventures File. But this is my first attempt at such a move in this excellent forum. Ben will interject if I've got it wrong. The guru who originally wrote this is Mac Broughton. I can find his email address if you want to know more. Regards Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-06-02, 09:48z  >I think I've uploaded my text file on this to the File Adventures File. But this is my first attempt at such a move in this excellent forum.< I can't find anything. I'm new here and maybe I'm not looking in the right place (File uploads?). M. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-06-02, 15:42z  Hi Maurice It beats me. Just above this 'window' is a line which reads "File Upload Enabled Click here to upload your file" I clicked selected and.... nothing. How does one shout for help around here? The help file is a list of FAQs and it seems no one has had trouble with this. Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Mike_Greenwood Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-06-02, 16:24z  >>How does one shout for help around here? The help file is a list of FAQs and it seems no one has had trouble with this. << Hehe, right here Frank. Unfortunately we're still working on the file library so it's partially inop right now. I see the file, and will post it in a message here shortly. --Greenie **6 miles SSE KSJC** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-07-02, 04:58z  Hi Greenie Thanks. I have wondered whether a cut and paste would work, but if you have the file there and can put it up that'll do. I expect you remember how knowledgeable Mac was on things hardware. He would be a great addition around here, if he can be enticed. Regards Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Mike_Greenwood Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 14. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-07-02, 20:37z  Hi Frank, >>I expect you remember how knowledgeable Mac was on things hardware. He would be a great addition around here, if he can be enticed.<< Man, that's for sure. Maybe Gunner's still in touch with him...Guns? Here's a copy of the file you uploaded: -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= >> Can someone explain the difference between an LCD screen and a TFT screen, other than the obvious price difference <G>? << TFT stands for "Thin Film Transistor" which is one type of LCD (Liquid Crystal Display). I believe all currently produced LCDs are the TFT type. TFT displays (also called "active matrix") use a separate transistor at each pixel location which improves reaction time. Pixels on LCD displays have slow reaction times when changing from one color to another (passive matrix LCDs are horribly slow at this and TFT displays are faster, but only somewhat). This slow reaction time isn't much of a problem if you're websurfing and running business apps, but causes fast moving objects (as in games) to appear fuzzy and/or smeared on screen. Mitsubishi has recently developed a technology called Feed Forward (FFD) for LCD displays which works around this problem by turning each pixel black for a couple of milliseconds between pixel redraws, but displays using this technology aren't scheduled for release til first quarter 2002. Until those displays are available, I'd strongly recommend against considering any LCD display for gaming. A good article on this subject is available at http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%253D1021%2526a%253D15016,00.asp. Mac B./Assoc. Sysop -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= --Greenie **6 miles SSE KSJC** Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

jonahbird Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 15. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-07-02, 22:59z  Hi Mike Thanks for getting that up. I hope Maurice sees it and finds it helpful. I do hope MacB finds his way here. Frank Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Gunner Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 16. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-07-02, 23:53z  >> Maybe Gunner's still in touch with him...Guns? << No, I haven't heard from him in a *long* time. Sorry! Thanks for the lesson on LCD displays, I freely admit I know nothing about 'em. Now I can at least follow a conversation about the technology. Have Fun! (tm) -= Gunner =- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 17. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-08-02, 22:18z  Hi, Mike, >Mitsubishi has recently developed a technology called Feed Forward (FFD) for LCD displays...............A good article on this subject is available at http://www.extremetech.com/article/0,3396,s%253D1021%2526a%253D15016,00.asp.<; Yes, I've now read that article and the Mitsubishi FFD is certainly an interesting and cunning technique for quickening the response time of the screen elements. If what is said there is true these new displays could be with us within weeks. But I wonder if they will appear in the USA first, with a long delay in it's introduction in the UK. The response time of the EIZO device I'm looking at is quoted as 40mS typical and I realised that this corresponded to roughly a 25 Hz limit on refresh rate. As I'm reasonably satisfied with a frame rate max of 15Hz with FS2002 (I max everything out) this may not be a serious problem for me but one can't really be sure how well the simple theory ties in with the practice without seeing the thing performing. The new FFD product being in the offing could explain why EIZO have recently substantially cut the price of their 685 18" model. It seemed pretty good value at the lower price. I was just feeling for the plastic to order a nice new toy and you introduce me to FFD, dammit! Thanks for the gen. Maurice. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

PaulCroft Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-06-02, 23:09z  Hi Maurice >> Before I part with the lolly would any user of FS2002 on an LCD care to comment on their suitability for flightsimming (compared to CRTs) and give me any appropriate advice, svp? << FWIW, when I visited the Flightsim Show 24th November last MS were demoing FS2k2 on TFT screens and the displays gave no hint of smearing that I could see, I was very impressed with the display and made a mental note that I would seriously consider one when the budget allows. I didn't sadly, note which screens they were using - I was more interested in the fact that they were demoing the systems on 750 MHz Pentiums with GEForce 3 video cards indicating, to me at least, the relative importance/relationship between these two essential elements of a good system. Seeing Norman's recent msg they are not the only ones who think so. Paul Croft 10 miles south east of LHR Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

maurice Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 13. "RE: LCDs and FS2002" 01-07-02, 18:06z  >Seeing Norman's recent msg they are not the only ones who think so.< Yes, I spotted his comments. Thanks for the gen. Maurice (1DME N Gatwick) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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