LAST EDITED ON 06-01-03 AT 22:01z ()

Hi all,

a simple FS-Navigator question: How can I distinguish between a VOR without DME and a VOR with DME in FS-Navigator?

It seems to me that some VORs in FS98 that had DME now don't have it anymore in FS2002.

Regards,

Guido

• RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Ben_Chiu, 23:13z, 06-01-03
• RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,RayProudfoot, 16:31z, 06-02-03
  • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Guido_Ostkamp, 15:36z, 06-03-03
    • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Ben_Chiu, 16:59z, 06-03-03
      • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Guido_Ostkamp, 22:05z, 06-03-03
        • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Ben_Chiu, 22:59z, 06-03-03
    • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,RayProudfoot, 18:34z, 06-03-03
      • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Guido_Ostkamp, 22:05z, 06-03-03
      • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,PaulCroft, 23:44z, 06-04-03
        • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,RayProudfoot, 22:13z, 06-05-03
    • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,RayProudfoot, 22:11z, 06-05-03
      • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,Guido_Ostkamp, 17:47z, 06-07-03
        • RE: VOR vs. VOR-DME,RayProudfoot, 08:46z, 06-08-03

Greetings Guido:

> a simple FS-Navigator question: How can I distinguish between a VOR
> without DME and a VOR with DME in FS-Navigator?

I don't have FSNAV, but if the symbology they use there is the same as in the real world, you can tell the difference between VOR's, VOR/DME's and VORTAC's by the symbols used to represent them. There are legends for these symbols included in the DVD you have.

> It seems to me that some VORs in FS98 that had DME now don't have it
> anymore in FS2002.

I seem to recall that there was some sort of third party database import that was required for FSNAV at one point. Perhaps this was the cause of the discrepancy?

Ben

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Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

Hi Guido,

Ben is correct in saying the symbol will differ. VOR/DMEs are shown in blue with small marks around the circle. DMEs are shown by a blue circle without the marks. Take a look around Manchester. MCT is a VOR/DME but Warton (WTN) to the NW is a DME. Pausing the mouse over an object will also confirm its type.

Hope that helps.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray and Ben,

> VOR/DMEs are shown in blue with small marks around the
> circle. DMEs are shown by a blue circle without the marks.
> Take a look around Manchester. MCT is a VOR/DME but Warton
> (WTN) to the NW is a DME. Pausing the mouse over an object
> will also confirm its type.

I had a close look and the symbols differ - a bit. However,
they do not resize when zooming in, so its a bit hard to see
on this 21" monitor. I found DMEs to have a blue square and
VORs to have some different symbols, with VOR/DME having the
combination.

Interestingly the WTN you mentioned is listed as VORTAC in
my FS98 scenery (maybe Europe 3 add-on, I'm not sure at the
moment) while in FS2002 there is only a DME.

I remember as well that in FS2002 I often feel there are ILS
without DME.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

Greetings Guido:

> I remember as well that in FS2002 I often feel there are ILS
> without DME.

To help clarify, an ILS is two three component system: localizer, glideslope, and marker beacons. DME is not a standard component of an ILS system. DME and VORTAC's provide distance measuring information via a separate frequency (actually a channel) which in modern NAV systems is tuned in automatically when you dial in the VOR/DME or VORTAC. The easiest way to tell whether a NAVAID has DME capability when looking at a chart like like like a sectional without memorizing the symbology is to look for a channel listing in the navigation box--if it has a "Ch 71" for example, it has DME.

Hope this helps!

Ben

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Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

Hi Ben,

> > I remember as well that in FS2002 I often feel there are
> > ILS without DME.
>
> To help clarify, an ILS is two three component system:
> localizer, glideslope, and marker beacons. DME is not a
> standard component of an ILS system.

Yes, but I don't remember any ILS in FS98 that did not have
a DME capability.

What about CAT II, CAT III approaches? Do they require that
the ILS used has a DME readout?

> DME and VORTAC's provide distance measuring information
> via a separate frequency (actually a channel) which in
> modern NAV systems is tuned in automatically when you dial
> in the VOR/DME or VORTAC.

... or the ILS, if it has DME. Or do you treat the ILS as
special kind of VOR or VOR/DME?

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

Guido:

> Yes, but I don't remember any ILS in FS98 that did not have
> a DME capability.

I can't recall specifically, but it'd be unrealistic if it were like that.

> What about CAT II, CAT III approaches? Do they require that
> the ILS used has a DME readout?

As far as I know, no. But most runways that have CATII and III approaches are at bigger airports, which typically have DME. You might drop this question to Mark in the Airlines and Airliners Forum. Mark flies CATII and III approaches. I bet he knows the answer.

> > DME and VORTAC's provide distance measuring information
> > via a separate frequency (actually a channel) which in
> > modern NAV systems is tuned in automatically when you dial
> > in the VOR/DME or VORTAC.
>
> ... or the ILS, if it has DME. Or do you treat the ILS as
> special kind of VOR or VOR/DME?

Actually, it's the LOC (localizer component of the ILS) that might have a DME attached to it. Again, the "Chan" in the Navigation box listed in the chart or plate will be the give-away to whether the DME is present.

Best!

Ben

-= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =-
Registered to: Ben Chiu
-OLR.PL v1.80-

Hi Guido,

It just occurred to me that we could be talking about different versions of FSNav. My comments are based on v4 which may be different to v3 as far as symbols are concerned.

I'm a bit perplexed by your comment about sizing on a 21" monitor. Shouldn't they be easier to see on a larger one? On my 19" CRT running at 1280*960 the symbols are quite easy to identify.

As far as non-DME ILSs are concerned the place for those is France! They just don't seem to bother. Same goes for a lot of their VORs too! Just the French being different I suppose

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

> It just occurred to me that we could be talking about
> different versions of FSNav. My comments are based on v4
> which may be different to v3 as far as symbols are
> concerned.

I am using the latest v4.x version with FS2002 and the v3
version with FS98. The symbols are the same, but my scenery
isn't.

> I'm a bit perplexed by your comment about sizing on a 21" monitor.

I'm sorry, but I mixed up things. In my office I have 21"
(without FS, of course <g>) but at home there is only 19".

> Shouldn't they be easier to see on a larger one? On my 19"
> CRT running at 1280*960 the symbols are quite easy to
> identify.

Well, it depends. The VORs are often located at airports,
when you zoom in you get the brown airport area in the
background enlarged, however the symbol for the VOR isn't.
Furthermore there is so much other stuff around, ILS,
markers, identifiers, runways, frequencies and so on, and
the thickness of the lines is only one pixel, I believe. The
only difference between VOR and VOR/DME is a small square in
the middle. It would be easier to spot if the symbol used a
different color. Your mileage may vary.

> As far as non-DME ILSs are concerned the place for those
> is France! They just don't seem to bother. Same goes for a
> lot of their VORs too! Just the French being different I
> suppose

I don't know where I found them, but I don't remember having
done any flights in France regarding this. I tend to use the
distance readout from DME as a means to determine when to
drop flaps and gears - as you know, RC tends to put you on
ILS far out when you don't request a short landing and I
don't want to drop the gears if far from runway. Generally I
feel better when I know how far I am out, especially with
very low visibility or low cloud ceiling. Maybe I should use
other criteria.

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

Just like their cars - if they can be different they will <g>

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Registered to: Paul F. Croft
-OLR.PL v1.80-

Hi Paul,

<<Just like their cars - if they can be different they will <g> >>

Agreed! And if they can do anything to annoy the British that's a bonus! Like the constant ATC strikes every summer. I'd better stop I think.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Guido,

<<I had a close look and the symbols differ - a bit. However, they do not resize when zooming in...>>

You're right, they don't. I'd never really noticed before. But, I do think the symbols are different enough to be easily noticed once you zoom in far enough. Both types have a blue central square but the DME ones are lacking the markings around the circle which makes them easily identified for me at least.

<<I remember as well that in FS2002 I often feel there are ILS without DME.>>

Indeed there are! However, I rarely rely on FSNav to determine my distance from the runway. Radar Contact performs admirably in this respect.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

Hi Ray,

> You're right, they don't. I'd never really noticed before.
> But, I do think the symbols are different enough to be
> easily noticed once you zoom in far enough. Both types
> have a blue central square but the DME ones are lacking
> the markings around the circle which makes them easily
> identified for me at least.

you are talking about DME vs. VOR+DME while my question was
VOR vs. VOR+DME, but no problem.

> <<I remember as well that in FS2002 I often feel there are
> ILS without DME.>>
>
> Indeed there are! However, I rarely rely on FSNav to
> determine my distance from the runway.

You mean you use either the RC display or FSNav map to
determine the distance although in reality both do not exist
in a real aircraft?

Regards,

Guido

-OLR.PL v1.82-

Hi Guido,

<<you are talking about DME vs. VOR+DME while my question was VOR vs. VOR+DME, but no problem. >>

Woops, sorry! I'm glad one of us is on the ball

<<You mean you use either the RC display or FSNav map to
determine the distance although in reality both do not exist in a real aircraft? >>

I use the RC display for my distance from the airport. For ILS/DMEs I also refer to the relevant gauge on my 767 panel. Whilst the former isn't used in the real world the latter definitely is. The Outer, Middle and Inner beacons also come in useful in poor visibility. Only use FSNav as a flight planner.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England