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TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Spin Training Questions" 01-14-03, 18:09z  I'm going out to AZ yet again next month (this time with wife and kids!), and I'm scheduled to do spin training with Sonny Weller while we're out there. Sonny knows I'm after the "full monty" of pre-solo-acro spin exposure, and has promised to work with me on upright, inverted, and crossover spins, as well as accelerated and flat modes of those. I also asked him to have us enter some spins by botching a few maneuvers, just to see what that's like. We are hoping to cover this stuff in two or three sessions. So my questions are: - Anybody have a PIREP on Sonny Weller as a spin instructor? - Am I planning on doing all the right things in my limited time with him? - Can I really accomplish enough in three sessions with Sonny to safely go out and fly solo acro in my S-1S? - Should I spend the time between now and next month getting my stomach tolerance in shape (to the extent I can do that in non-acro flight), or should I not worry so much about that, and just keep plugging away at learning to land my airplane? Tom P. Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: Spin Training Questions vgbaron 01-15-03 1   RE: Spin Training Questions Ninepilot 01-20-03 2    RE: Spin Training Questions DaveSwartz 01-20-03 3   RE: Spin Training Questions TomParsons 01-20-03 4    RE: Spin Training Questions DaveSwartz 01-20-03 5         RE: Spin Training Questions TomParsons 01-20-03 6              RE: Spin Training Questions Ninepilot 01-21-03 7                   RE: Spin Training Questions TomParsons 01-21-03 8         RE: Spin Training Questions DHamblin 01-21-03 9   Spin Training Update TomParsons 02-20-03 10    RE: Spin Training Update Ben_Chiu 02-23-03 11         RE: Spin Training Update TomParsons 02-24-03 12              RE: Spin Training Update Ben_Chiu 02-24-03 13                   RE: Spin Training Update TomParsons 02-25-03 14                        RE: Spin Training Update ghmorris 03-21-03 15                             RE: Spin Training Update cduster 04-25-03 16

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vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-15-03, 04:28z  > - Should I spend the time between now and next month getting my stomach > tolerance in shape (to the extent I can do that in non-acro flight), or > should I not worry so much about that, and just keep plugging away at > learning to land my airplane? > Well, IMHO, it doesn't matter what you do in the air if you can't get it down on the ground in one piece <g>. I'd stay with the landings. Vic -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Vic Baron -OLR.PL v1.81- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ninepilot Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-20-03, 04:55z  Hey Tom-- I can't answer the first question about Sonny Weller, as I don't know him, but I can give you a little advice on the second part...that is, how much spin training is enough... Personally, I don't think that you can get enough spin training...it just depends on your comfort level with spins..I have been training with Greg Poe out in Boise in my Christen Eagle. For me, 3 sessions are not enough, especially when I consider all the inverted stuff, which I am not so comfortable with. Maybe you will be different, but I want to be comfortable in ANY situation... I figure about 10 hours of "hard" spin time is what I need..to the point that I can close my eyes, head down, have him put me in some God-awful spin, and recover POSITIVELY (not using the Beggs-Mueller technique). These biplanes wrap up very tight, and you can find yourself in a world of hurt very quickly. So, that is my opinion, and you can take it for what it is worth...I look at spin training as "life insurance"...don't skimp on this one... Dan Sullivan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DaveSwartz Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-20-03, 14:34z  I think Dan has it right. One way to look at it is to try to count the number of different spin cases you could get into. Consider the following 5 parameters that change the characteristics of a spin: 1) Power (on or off) 2) Attitude (upright or inverted) 3) Angle of Attack (positive or negative) 4) Stick position (forward or back) 5) Aileron position (into or away from direction of rotation) For simplicity, consider that each will be either one way or the other. That gives you 32 different spin scenarios to experience and learn. This can be cut in half by remembering that, in a spin, the first thing to do is pull power to idle. There is really no point spending time with power-on spins other than the "thrill factor". That leaves 16 different spin modes. Shorter spin courses tend to ignore the cross-over modes (although they are the most dangerous). It is possible to structure courses so that the shortest courses cover the most important cases but can not cover all cases. It is possible to get through all cases in around 5 hours and additional time can be used to really cement a strong understanding of what is going on. Dave Swartz Fort Lauderdale, Florida http://www.FlightFantastic.US Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-20-03, 16:11z  Thanks for your responses. As you might imagine, I'm anxious to get my feet wet flying at least some simple acro in my S-1S (I have about 20 hours of dual acro flight time, about half of it in 2-place Pitts types). So are you saying that I should put off any solo acro maneuvers (even plain-jane loops, rolls, or inverted flight) in my airplane until after I've been through a more extensive spin exposure than this 3-hour deal? Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DaveSwartz Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 5. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-20-03, 20:22z  Any pilot that is going to commit aerobatics SHOULD have a clear understanding of the various spin modes and have emergency spin recovery techniques down pat. Any time you fly new maneuvers you should try them at a sufficiently high altitude that you could afford to: 1) bust the maneuver and put in into a spin 2) try to recover and fail 3) safely execute emergency recovery It always nice to have lots of altitude to play with. It is quite easy to mess up a maneuver and loose 2000 feet and many people have lost more than that. A normal one turn spin uses around 500 feet and the recovery (if prompt) uses another 400-500 feet. Any additional turns will use another 500 feet. The reality is that most aerobatic pilots do not first take the time to get deeply into studying spins before having some fun (and many never take detailed spin instruction). There has been some discussion in the IAC to try to come up with a way to fix this, but, so far, there is no agreement as to how (or even IF) this should be done. It comes down to personal choice. I first flew aerobatics in a Great Lakes after a 10 hour check out that originally did not include any spins. I insisted in doing some spins with the instructor and he reluctantly agreed. Looking back, it would have been safer to find someone qualified to teach them - any instructor that is afraid of them is clearly not qualified to teach them. After 45 hours in the Lakes I finally got some proper spin instruction when I wanted a Pitts check-out. I did 5 hours but have learned much more since then so the learning, hopefully, never stops. With what I now know, I realize that I was quite vulnerable during the 45 hours of flying I did before getting some competent spin training. Like 99.9% of aerobatic pilots, I never got into a situation that demanded more than I could do at the time. If I had been unlucky enough to bust a maneuver and get into one of the more unusual spins, there would have been the possibility that I might not have been able to recover. Dave Swartz Fort Lauderdale, Florida http://www.FlightFantastic.US Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 6. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-20-03, 20:47z  Dave- I really appreciate your input. Also, I'm glad you've found your way to this message board! I definitely agree with your point about having lots of air under you. And I like your 3-point rule-of-thumb to guide my thinking about how high to be. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ninepilot Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 7. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-21-03, 07:12z  Hey Tom-- Dave has some great points...and he obviously has a lot more experience in the matter than me. One thing that I think you will find as you get into your spin training is just how disoriented you could get if you find yourself in a spin mode that you don't fully understand. If you are going to compete in IAC contests, you will be performing your maneuvers between 3500 ft and 1500 ft agl. Based on what Dave has told you, if you wind up in a spin as a result of a botched maneuver (a spin that you were not anticipating in the first place), you don't have a lot of time (altitude) in which you first must identify the spin type, then apply the correct control inputs to recover. When you practice, the higher you are, the better...be conservative, and only go down to the IAC presribed altitudes when you are proficient at the maneuvers. I really wonder why the IAC does not mandate some type of spin training for all contest participants, but I, like you, am a newcomer to the sport. Maybe someday they will, but in the meantime, I would become VERY familiar with spins before performing solo aerobatics in a Pitts. Gene Beggs has a book called "Spins in the Pitts Special", available through many outlets (I found mine through Patty Wagstaff's website), and I think it is an excellent book. The Pitts and Eagle are awesome airplanes, but their safety record is less than good, mostly due to pilots who don't fully understand the capabilities of their airplane. If you maintain your Pitts to the highest standard, and then consistantly train to and maintain an equally high standard for yourself, I believe that you will enjoy a very safe and rewarding experience in aerobatics. Take time to enjoy your training...it is all fun! Dan Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 8. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-21-03, 13:14z  Dan- Good point about practicing high. I do intend to stay high in practice, not come down to box altitude until I'm ready, and even then spend most of my practice time high. I've spent lots of time browsing the last 10 years of the ACRO e-mail list archives (it's been a cold, dull winter!). One thing I've noticed among the IAC membership (and, therefore, its leadership) is a serious aversion toward being told what to do! Last year's poorly-received change in the Basic (Primary) category is one example of this. Many people were concerned that removing the spin from the Primary sequence would mean that pilots with insufficient spin experience would be flying in contests. The idea was floated at the time to require some evidence of spin training as a contest entry requirement, but there were significant objections raised. There were a number of reasons behind the objections, but I think part of it was reticence to deviate from the IAC's tradition of informal pilot self-policing. So, rightly or wrongly, I doubt that we'll see an IAC-mandated spin training requirement any time soon. Speaking of spins , I have that excellent Gene Beggs book. It was so good that I read it cover-to-cover in one sitting! They were selling them at the judges' school I attended last spring. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

DHamblin Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 9. "RE: Spin Training Questions" 01-21-03, 18:08z  My friend/CFI who just got the Zlin is going to be taking spin training soon. Thats the first step Rob Dorsey stated; get the spin training first. Then start on the other basics. Dave Hamblin (formerly DaveH on old site!) Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 10. "Spin Training Update" 02-20-03, 18:43z  I'm back from my spin training sessions with Sonny Weller. It was an enlightening, valuable, and exhausting experience! We had a total of three sessions in Sonny's S-2C. One was cut a little short by weather, but the other two lasted until I said, "uncle", which happened at about .9! I feel like I did pretty well, considering it's been several months since the last acro flying for me. We started with basic upright spins, left and right, and tried both active recoveries and Beggs-Mueller. We also looked at accelerating and flattening the spins. It did not take very much power to significantly flatten the spin. And the rotation rate on the accelerated spin was enough to squeeze an involuntary "holy crap!" past my lips! Next came the inverted spins. Although it was certainly disorienting, I didn't have quite the level of complete confusion I had anticipated. I would describe it as unusual, but not unnatural looking. It did seem odd that we recovered from a 3-turn spin on the opposite heading, until Sonny reminded my that we had started inverted, and pulled out upright. We also crossed over from upright to inverted, which was the most disorienting maneuver of the whole trip. After the crossover, I would not have known which rudder to push (at least not right away) if it hadn't been for the fact that one leg was straight, and the other wasn't! We also tried accelerating and flattening the inverted spins, although Sonny was not up for more than a turn or so of inverted flat spinning. It was interesting that we seemed to recover more quickly from the inverted spins, due I suppose to the larger non-blanked rudder surface hanging in the breeze. In the third session, we went back for more inverted spins, and Sonny tested me on emergency recoveries. In this part he went a little too easy on me- I wish he had thrown some tougher stuff at me, like a crossover spin to recover from, or maybe "accidently" leaving a touch of power in. We finished up with some straight acro maneuvers, hoping to have me fall out of something. Unfortunately, I didn't manage to mess up anything badly enough to get us spinning (maybe I should have tried harder!). All in all, it was a well-spent time getting an introduction to all-attitude spins (well, not really ALL- we didn't have time for any snaps). Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 11. "RE: Spin Training Update" 02-23-03, 19:43z  Greetings Tom: Sounds like you certainly got the "full monty"! I was wondering what you thought about the spin characteristics of the Pitts. The aircraft that I've spun have been trainers, so they're very stable and nearly recover hands off. I'd imagine that a Pitts would love be very neutral stability wise and would want to stay in what ever attitude you stuck it in. Any insights? Thanks! Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.80- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 12. "RE: Spin Training Update" 02-24-03, 02:30z  I haven't actually spun many types besides the Pitts (a few turns in a Citabria, one or two in an Extra 300), so I don't have that much of a basis for comparison. I do recall that the Citabria needed much more coaxing on the stick to stay in the spin, while the Pitts seemed like it would spin all day with in-spin rudder and hands off the stick. Also, not that you'd want to do this, but the Pitts recovered from a plain ol' upright spin, with power off, holding neutral rudder, and hands off the stick, within about a turn or so. We never tried recovering with both hands and feet off. In the spin, there were definite stick forces needed to move the ailerons and elevator from whatever position put the control surfaces in-trail. On the whole, the airplane did not seem to me to be unruly in terms of prompt spin recoveries, as long as the power is off. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

Ben_Chiu Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 13. "RE: Spin Training Update" 02-24-03, 23:19z  Thanks for the insights, Tom. > On the whole, the airplane did not seem to me to be unruly in terms of > prompt spin recoveries, as long as the power is off. What happens when the power is on (aside from flattening out the spin)? Tumbling? Ben -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Ben Chiu -OLR.PL v1.80- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

TomParsons Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 14. "RE: Spin Training Update" 02-25-03, 00:50z  >What happens when the power is on (aside from flattening >out the spin)? Tumbling? In the scenarios we tried, all that happened was that the spin flattened- no tumbling. We only tried flattening the spin with power for upright, left-rudder spins and inverted, right-rudder spins. Sonny told me that the gyroscopic effects did not favor flattening the spins with power in the upright, right-rudder or inverted, left-rudder modes. BTW, all the spins we did were begun with level, power-off, +/- 1G stalls; i.e., no snapping, and no tumbling setups. Tom P. Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

ghmorris Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 15. "RE: Spin Training Update" 03-21-03, 04:56z  Tom, You should get some dual in the upright right foot spins and inverted left foot spins (I usually call them accelerated spins); the rotation rate of the aircraft will increase even more than in the flat spins. Think of an ice skater spinning in place, then tucking in their arms, the rotation rate winds up significantly. The same will happen with the aircraft, the gyroscopics will cause the aircraft to pitch towards the planet, thus moving the mass of the aircraft closer to the axis of rotation causing the increase in rotation rate. -Greg- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

cduster Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 16. "RE: Spin Training Update" 04-25-03, 19:59z  Hello all, For anyone interested who lives close to the Raleigh NC area, the local IAC guys are having Bill Finegan down from Maryland to do some spin training on Friday and Saturday May 2nd and 3rd. The flying will take place at the Oxford-Henderson airport north of Raleigh. If you want to attend please email me at cduster@inteliport.com and I'll put you in touch with the gentleman handling the scheduling for the IAC chapter. Thanks, Craig Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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