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vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: "Kai-Tak" 06-02-03, 16:45z  Mark - Ben mentioned that you either flew the Kai-tak approach or did it in a sim. Just curious - how hairy is it> Sure doesn't seem like there's much margin for error. Vic -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Vic Baron -OLR.PL v1.80- Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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Subject      Author      Message Date     ID      RE: Kai-Tak mark_hoffman 07-02-03 1    RE: Kai-Tak vgbaron 07-03-03 2         RE: Kai-Tak mark_hoffman 07-05-03 3              RE: Kai-Tak vgbaron 07-05-03 4

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mark_hoffman Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 1. "RE: Kai-Tak" 07-02-03, 21:22z  Hi Vic, I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to reply. I've had a busy month. I have indeed flown in there and it is one of the few airports where a visual approach is more difficult than the instrument approach. As you probably know, you approach on a base leg to the runway aiming at a big billboard. The problem is that the base leg must be flown so close into the airport that the final is very short. Compounding this is the fact that there is almost a right crosswind. As you are on a right base that right crosswind on final is a tailwind on base. This tends to make you overshoot the final which you must not do. Because of all the above the approach is often not too stablized which is pretty important in heavy jets. You are often rolling wings level on final at just a feww hundred feet, this in an aircraft with a 195 foot wingspan! All that being said though, the landing at Kai Tak was hotly fought over because it was such a challange. After all, that's why we became pilots wasn't it? Mark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 2. "RE: Kai-Tak" 07-03-03, 00:36z  Hi Mark - No problem - I understand how it goes. I've watched several different videos of some of the landings and it amazes me how nimble a 747 can be. I guess the classic is the Korean Air 747 that comes over the numbers at about a 30 - 45 degree crab - slams the rudder and straightens out just as the mains hit. I'd love a challenge like that. Out of curiosity, did pilots have to have sim time on that approach before tackling it for real or did they just get thrown to the wolves. I guess the other approach that gives me a kick to see is the St.Martens approach just over the beach. Talk about kicking sand in your face... Thanx, Vic > Hi Vic, > > I'm sorry that it has taken me so long to reply. I've had a busy month. > I have indeed flown in there and it is one of the few airports where a > visual approach is more difficult than the instrument approach. > As you probably know, you approach on a base leg to the runway aiming at > a big billboard. The problem is that the base leg must be flown so close > into the airport that the final is very short. Compounding this is the > fact that there is almost a right crosswind. As you are on a right base > that right crosswind on final is a tailwind on base. This tends to make > you overshoot the final which you must not do. Because of all the above > the approach is often not too stablized which is pretty important in > heavy jets. You are often rolling wings level on final at just a feww > hundred feet, this in an aircraft with a 195 foot wingspan! > All that being said though, the landing at Kai Tak was hotly fought over > because it was such a challange. After all, that's why we became pilots > wasn't it? > > Mark -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Vic Baron -OLR.PL v1.81- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

mark_hoffman Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 3. "RE: Kai-Tak" 07-05-03, 08:15z  It's true about how nimble a 747 is, it flies like a much smaller airplane in some respects. It has a particularly good roll rate, so that made the Kai Tak approach a little easier. However, an unstablized approach, particularly with respect to your speed, in an aircraft like that can be a recipe for disaster. One of the things that light aircraft pilots aren't used to taking into account is the fact that much of the roll control at low speeds in a 747 (and most other jets) is accomplished with spoilers. So when you see a video like you were describing where a 747 is rapidly rolling out of a bank in or just prior to the flare, you have to realize that the act of rolling out of that bank is killing a large amount of lift on one wing. If you are already slow, you are going to pick up a huge sink rate very low to the ground, possibly with crushing results. There are ways to counter this, because this happens on every crosswind landing for example. You can carry a little extra speed (although this isn't recommended at Kai Tak due to the length of the runway) or you can leave the power on just a little bit longer through the flare. I've written a column about the differences between landing a light aircraft and a 747 which will be appearing on the website soon. As far as your question about the sim training, that approach was programed into the sim, but it was not required to be practiced prior to flying the actual approach. Mark Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

vgbaron Certificates/Ratings/Crew Stations: 4. "RE: Kai-Tak" 07-05-03, 18:12z  Thanx for the info, Mark - I hadn't thought about it that way. Looking forward to your article. Vic -= VPC OffLine Reader 2.1 =- Registered to: Vic Baron -OLR.PL v1.81- Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Reply With Quote | Top

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