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"Which graphics card?"

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PaulCroft[Crew]

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"Which graphics card?"
02-27-03, 11:33z 

Hi All

Sorry I haven't been around for a while - work and BOTA have been taking priority lately. However, with a bit of time now in hand I am looking to change/update my graphics card.

I have an Athlon 1600+ based system, about 1 year old, with a GeForce3 Ti500 graphics card, 512MB RAM, winXP Home. I've recently added an old Matrox Millenium PCI card in to test the XP dual monitor facility and I love it. However, the old Matrox card is a bit underpowered for driving the second screen, an iiyama 19" CRT, so I'm looking to upgrade the graphics. Finding PCI graphics cards is a bit difficult nowadays and the obvious route seems to be to go for a single card that supports dual monitors. I want one of the outputs to be digital to drive the primary monitor, an 18" LCD.

Now, here's my problem. I could rush out and buy a GeForce4 Ti4600, or an ATI Radeon 9700, but I suspect that these would be a waste of money insofar as they would far exceed the capabilities of the cpu. Does anyone have any suggestions as to what the optimum sort of card would be for an Athlon 1600+?

Thanks in advance

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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  Table of Contents

  Subject      Author      Message Date     ID   
  RE: Which graphics card? jonahbird[Crew] 02-28-03 1
   RE: Which graphics card? Ben_Chiu[Admin] 02-28-03 2
        RE: Which graphics card? jonahbird[Crew] 02-28-03 3
        RE: Which graphics card? Emile[Crew] 03-02-03 7
             RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 03-06-03 10
   RE: Which graphics card? TD[Guest] 03-01-03 6
        RE: Which graphics card? Mike_Greenwood[Admin] 03-09-03 15
  RE: Which graphics card? L1049H[Crew] 03-01-03 4
  RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 03-01-03 5
   RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 03-05-03 8
        RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 03-06-03 9
             RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 03-06-03 11
                  RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 03-08-03 13
                       RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 03-10-03 16
             RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 03-08-03 12
                  RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-07-03 17
                       RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 04-07-03 18
                            RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-08-03 20
                            RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-14-03 46
                                 RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 04-24-03 50
  RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 03-09-03 14
   RE: Which graphics card? AlanParkinson[Guest] 04-07-03 19
        RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-08-03 21
             RE: Which graphics card? AlanParkinson[Guest] 04-08-03 22
                  RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-08-03 23
                       RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-09-03 24
                            RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-09-03 25
                                 RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-11-03 26
                                      RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-11-03 27
                                           RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-12-03 28
                                                RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-12-03 29
                                                     RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-12-03 30
                                                          RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-12-03 31
                                                               RE: Appreciation Ben_Chiu[Admin] 04-12-03 32
                                                                    RE: Appreciation RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-13-03 34
                                                                         RE: Appreciation Ben_Chiu[Admin] 04-13-03 41
                                                                    RE: Appreciation WScofield[Crew] 04-13-03 36
                                                                         RE: Appreciation Ben_Chiu[Admin] 04-13-03 42
                                                               RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-13-03 35
                                                                    RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-22-03 47
                                                                         RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-23-03 48
                                                                              RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-25-03 51
                                                                         RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-24-03 49
                                                                              RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-25-03 52
                                                                                   RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-26-03 53
                                                                                        RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-27-03 56
                                                                              RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-26-03 54
                                                                                   RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 04-27-03 55
                                                                                        RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-28-03 58
                                                                                   RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-27-03 57
                                                                                        RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-28-03 59
                                                                                             RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-28-03 60
                                                                                                  RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-30-03 66
                                                                                                       RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-30-03 67
                                                                                        RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-28-03 62
                                                                                             RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-29-03 63
                                                                                                  RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-29-03 64
                                                                                                       RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-30-03 68
                                                                                                            RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-01-03 70
                                                                                                            RE: Which graphics card? Stephen[Sysop] 05-03-03 76
                                                                                   RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-28-03 61
                                                                                        RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 04-30-03 65
                                                                                             RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-01-03 69
                                                                                                  RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 05-01-03 71
                                                                                                  RE: Which graphics card? Ben_Chiu[Admin] 05-01-03 72
                                                                                                       RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-02-03 74
                                                                                                            RE: Which graphics card? Mike_Greenwood[Admin] 05-04-03 79
                                                                                                                 RE: Which graphics card? jonahbird[Crew] 05-05-03 81
                                                                                                                      RE: Which graphics card? Mike_Greenwood[Admin] 05-07-03 84
                                                                                                                           RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 05-07-03 85
                                                                                                                 RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-05-03 82
                                                                                                  RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 05-01-03 73
                                                                                                       RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-03-03 75
                                                                                                            RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 05-03-03 77
                                                                                                                 RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-03-03 78
                                                                                                                      RE: Which graphics card? PaulCroft[Crew] 05-05-03 80
                                                                                                                           RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 05-05-03 83
                                                               RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-13-03 38
                                                                    RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-13-03 39
                                                                         RE: Which graphics card? WScofield[Crew] 04-14-03 43
                                                                    RE: Which graphics card? vgbaron[Sysop] 04-13-03 40
                                                          RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-12-03 33
                                                               RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-13-03 37
                                                                    RE: Which graphics card? James[Sysop] 04-14-03 44
                                                                         RE: Which graphics card? RayProudfoot[Guest] 04-14-03 45

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jonahbird[Crew]

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1. "RE: Which graphics card?"
02-28-03, 10:38z 

Hi Paul

Nice to hear from you. The old gang is very quiet these days. I wonder where they've gone.

Your last para spiked my guns a bit as I don't have the comparative experience. I rate the Ti4600 very highly, running it on a P4 2.2Ghz. A friend has the Radeon 9700 but not on a comparable machine. I don't rate the Radeon so highly but then I have a deep rooted aversion to ATI products.

The dual drive works perfectly. I run the projector and an 18"TFT from mine.

That's my two penn'orth. Pete's bound to have tried all the combinations; it will be interesting to hear his views.

Best regards
Frank

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Ben_Chiu[Admin]

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2. "RE: Which graphics card?"
02-28-03, 18:56z 

Greetings Frank:

> Nice to hear from you. The old gang is very quiet these days. I wonder
> where they've gone.

Just FYI, Greenie's going in for some surgery today (he snapped his Achilles tendon while playing with his dog), James has been away in France and Belgium.

Get well soon, Greenie!

Ben


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jonahbird[Crew]

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3. "RE: Which graphics card?"
02-28-03, 23:24z 

Hi Ben

Best wishes to Greenie.

Just proves you shouldn't give a dog a bone - especially if it's yours :-)

Regards
Frank

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Emile[Crew]

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7. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-02-03, 16:43z 

Hello Gang,
>James has been away in France and Belgium.

I was away in Portugal to play some golf (the weather is beter thare than in Belgium at this time of the year).
Jame : next time you plan to come to Belgium, please inform me it will be my pleasure to meet you

Regards
Emile
EBBR Brussels
Belgium

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James[Sysop]

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10. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-06-03, 12:05z 

Hi Emile,

Sorry for the delay but been away for a few day's <s>. Just back this morning and away again for a day or to this afternoon (I think) <g>.

Will be coming to Belgium again (via Calais) in a couple of weeks or so (Duty Free run <s>) and will give you a shout a couple of days before hand (Saturday trip).

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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TD[Guest]

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6. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-01-03, 18:14z 

Still here too, although probably not as much as I could be. Been busy with work and personal stuff. Had to reinstall FS2k2 the other day, so I might be up to flying a bit more if time permits.

Sorry to hear about Greenie. Hope he is up and about soon enough.

"TD - Virtual FAA investigators are on line 2, AGAIN!!!"

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Mike_Greenwood[Admin]

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15. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-09-03, 02:56z 

Hi TD,

I'm up, but not getting around too well I'm afraid. The surgery went well, but the healing part is painful. Believe it or not, the docs say 6mo to 1yr for a full recovery :(

--Greenie
**6 miles SSE KSJC**

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L1049H[Crew]

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4. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-01-03, 02:08z 

Well, that's a nice quandry to be in <G>. I don't think either an ATI or Nvidia would be overkill for that CPU. FS2002 is CPU bound and you have a good CPU to run it. In addition if you buy a good card now you it can last a long time and be used if you ever upgrade.

I'd go for either ATI or Nvidia. I've been using Nvidia for many years and have been looking at new cards. My last ATI was a Mach64 and I quit using them because I got tired of the drivers. However, in my looking it appears Nvidia is going downhill, too. They don't perform that well in numbers benchmarks although ATI and Nvidia are close. In addition Nvidia's new offering has a built in fan on it that sounds like a vacuum cleaner! That I don't need! If I had to buy one today I'd probably get the ATI 9700 PRO but it would be a close call.

If you don't want to go ATI maybe one of the not so new Nvidia cards.

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Stephen[Sysop]

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5. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-01-03, 16:56z 

Hi Paul,

If you've got the money to spare then I would recommend the ATI Radeon 9700 (standard) ahead of the nVidia GeForce 4 Ti4600. Unfortunately this card costs in the region of £180-200 right now. The 9700 Pro costs even more but it doesn't have many more features than the standard 9700 GPU and in my opinion it's not worth spending the extra money on the Pro version. However, with the release of the GeForce FX in the UK very soon, the newest Radeon cards are likely to fall in price so I'd advise you to wait perhaps another month before buying a Radeon 9700, or a GeForce 4 Ti4600, which is also likely to fall in price over the next month.

I've a friend who recently upgraded to the ATI Radeon 9700 from a GeForce 2. He was using an AMD Athlon XP 1800+ with 512MB PC133 SDRAM and he noticed a massive increase in performance although of course you're upgrading from a much more recent card than the GeForce 2. What seemed to hold my friend's system back when he upgraded was actually, somewhat to my surprise, the RAM he was using. He replaced the 512MB PC133 SDRAM with 512MB PC2100 DDR-RAM shortly after upgrading to the Radeon 9700 and that's when his system's performance really made a big leap ahead. It would seem that the PC133 RAM was in some way holding back the graphics card.

What type of RAM are you using, Paul?

Can I also suggest that you might even want to upgrade your CPU at the same time as buying a new graphics card? Whilst I don't think either the Radeon 9700 or GeForce 4 Ti4600 would be too far ahead of your current CPU to allow for optimal performance, I've noticed that even the more recent AMD Athlon XP CPUs are now available at very little cost (eg. £125 for the retail package AMD Athlon XP 2400+ (operating at ~2.03GHz) - including low-noise rated and cooling-approved heatsink and fan produced by AMD - although you may need a new motherboard to cater for this CPU if your motherboard manufacturer hasn't produced a BIOS update which allows the motherboard to cater for these newer CPUs).

-Stephen.

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PaulCroft[Crew]

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8. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-05-03, 17:20z 

Firstly, please give my regards to Greenie, I hope he recovers quickly, and remind him he's too old to go doing this sort of thing <g>

Secondly, thanks all for the advice. Stephen, interesting info re the memory. I've just checked to see what sort of memory I currently have and it's listed as DDR SDRAM running at 268MHz. I have no idea if this is PC133 or PC2100 but it sounds like the former. However, when you start talking about upgrading the cpu and maybe swapping out the motherboard this is where the question initially posed always creates further problems isn't it? I'm not one who generally bothers upgrading individual parts of a PC, tending to believe that the system I initially bought was optimised and, by the time I begin to notice one part needs upgrading, then perhaps so do some others. That's when, normally about every two years, I generally just go out and buy a new PC. However, in this case, I'm really looking just to buy a new graphics card which will work well and not be overkill with the current system. This PC is about 12 months old so a new one is still probably about another year or so away.

Nonetheless, the advice given is illuminating and I'm grateful for all who contributed to the discussion. Gives me plenty to think about ...

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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Stephen[Sysop]

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9. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-06-03, 00:16z 

After further consideration I'm tempted to advise you against the Radeon 9700 for your current system. Bearing in mind that you only want to replace your graphics card and taking the other components into account and how much money it would be worth spending upgrading the system I'd have to suggest going for the Radeon 9500 or the GeForce 4 Ti4600 instead of the Radeon 9700, which is an very good card - perhaps a tiny bit too good for your system and probably far too expensive for use in your current system. I'm concerned that you might not get good value for money.

Please let us know your final decision, Paul.

-Stephen.

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James[Sysop]

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11. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-06-03, 12:06z 

Hi Stephen/Paul,

Why not upgrade the graphics card to a Matrox Perhelia 128 OR higher (now)? Roughly the same price and with the option to connect 3 monitors <s>.

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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PaulCroft[Crew]

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13. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-08-03, 13:20z 

Hi James

I know there are some here who use the Matrox and I was hoping for their input too. That is a card that I have considered and I certainly haven't discounted it yet, especially since I use my PC for mucho work as well as flying. I've no doubt the quality is excellent. How does it rank alongside the GeForce and ATI cards as regards frame rates for FS, bearing in mind that, as I understand the current situation, graphics cards are now so powerful that it tends to be the cpu that is the ultimate limiting factor?

Can't see myself going with 3 monitors. There's no room left on my desktop.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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16. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-10-03, 11:34z 

Hi Paul,

Don't know about GeForce Cards as I've never had one <s>. ATI in my view are rubbish in comparison to Matrox Cards.

Even with the Matrox Perhelia on either a singe monitor or 3 gives you the same frame rates. I don't even think the GeForce can muster that <s>. Pete or Mel can probably give you a better answer to this than I can <s>

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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PaulCroft[Crew]

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12. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-08-03, 13:19z 

Hi Stephen

Thanks for the update. I'll certainly let you know what I eventually decide.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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17. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-07-03, 03:21z 

Hi Paul -

Just wondered if you have gone any further in your analysis of options. I am in a similar situation, with an Athlon 1900+ system purchased about a year ago. I haven't gotten two monitors working off the same computer yet, as the old PCI video cards I had on hand that I tried along with the main Geforce 3 AGP card didn't cooperate at all. I have two monitors on the desk, but only one is presently doing anything. I'd like to get the toe in the water with dual monitors.

William

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18. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-07-03, 15:56z 

Hi William,

What exactly were the problems you encountered when trying to use the GeForce 3 AGP video card with an older PCI video card? Did you make sure the PCI video card was not in the PCI slot directly adjacent to the AGP slot?

-Stephen.

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20. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-08-03, 01:34z 

Hello Stephen -

It was some months back, but as I recall I simply couldn't get the 2d card/2d monitor to function. I haven't tried to recreate the situation recently, and don't recall which slot I tried - I think I tried a couple of slots before I gave up. If warranted, I could dig out the card(s) and try again, if there was some thought it might work.

William

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46. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-14-03, 23:52z 

Hi Bill and others

Sorry, I've been 'out of the loop' for a while. As it happens I've not yet made a final decision on this because, in the back of my mind, I can't help thinking that the better way to go is to buy a single card which supports dual monitors but I find it hard to justify paying out some £100 just so the second monitor will provide me with 1280x1024x32 instead of the 1152x864x16 it's currently limited to. Further, for the past 8 weeks I've been using the dual monitor set up for nearly all my flying (in the Battle of the Airlines where a dual monitor setup is near essential) but, now I'm back to my more normal flying with VATSIM, I've gone back to two separate PCs driving the two screens because, with VATSIM, I find it preferable to use one PC for flying and the other for comms. If I could just find a bit more room on my desk I'd actually go back to the dual monitor setup because I could then have FsNav on the second monitor and use my laptop for comms but space is at a bit of a premium just now and a second display is a luxury that's not essential to 'normal' flying. Methinks that I will probably now wait until early next year when I make my two yearly upgrade, at which time a newer dual monitor card would better compliment a new mobo and CPU.

Stephen
You said to Bill, "Did you make sure the PCI video card was not in the PCI slot directly adjacent to the AGP slot? Funnily enough this is exactly where mine sits and it's fine. If I move it one PCI slot over (so there's a gap of one PCI slot between the AGP and the Matrox card) I then have problems which are non-existent as long as it's in the adjacent slot. My only concern with having the two cards in adjacent slots was that there's not much room for air to get to the cooling fan on the GeForce 3 but, so far, it hasn't overheated and, over the past 8 weeks, it's been pushed very hard.

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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50. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-24-03, 12:26z 

I'll note what you said about the PCI video card working in the slot adjacent to the AGP slot but not in the next PCI slot down, Paul. In my experience this set-up tends to create IRQ conflict problems but I suppose it all depends on the various bits of hardware you're using in combination. Perhaps I was a bit naieve to assume that using a video card in the AGP slot and another video card in the adjacent PCI slot is always likely to cause problems.

Your point about cooling is extremely valid. Having not found a use for all my PCI slots I always choose to leave the PCI slot adjacent to the AGP slot vacant so that there's less chance of the hot air blown from the GPU of the video card becoming trapped and causing an overheating problem, although having said that I have no reason to suspect I would suffer from cooling problems should I choose to install a card directly below the AGP video card.

-Stephen.

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14. "RE: Which graphics card?"
03-09-03, 00:01z 

Hi Paul,

Sorry about my late arrival on this thread and I hope I'm not too late!

I've had a think about your situation and I feel your best option would be the Ti4600 as it suits your needs perfectly - support for 2 monitors with a DVI connection and no heat problems. I'm running my primary 19" at 1280*960*32 at 85Hz and the secondary 19" at 1360*1020*32 at 85Hz. You can pick a Creative Ti4600 up for under £200 at Dabs.com.

I know this seems a bit overpowered for a 1600 Athlon but I suspect you will be upgrading the processor in the next 12 months or so and if you do the Ti4600 will still offer very good performance.

I have no personal knowledge of the ATI Radeon 9700 which is getting good reports but this is a lot more expensive and to be honest it doesn't seem logical to spend £300 on a graphics card to run on an Athlon 1600 system.

Hope you're keeping well and that this is helpful.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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19. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-07-03, 23:56z 

Hi Ray,

>I know this seems a bit overpowered for a 1600 Athlon ...
>
>and to be honest it doesn't seem logical to spend £300 on
>a graphics card to run on an Athlon 1600 system.

When you talk so dismissively of the Athlon 1600, it makes me feel truly left out of things - still got that old Cyrix (Pentium 1 equivalent) running at 233 MHz!

Did you spot my message to Bill recently, re Windows 2000 grinding to a halt? I was hoping you might chip in with a helpful suggestion or two, but not to worry, I think Ive got it sorted now.

About ten removals and reinstalls of nvidia drivers for the graphics card, coupled with reverting from version 9 of Windows Media PLayer to version 6, has brought some degree of responsiveness back to the machine - it's now looking worthwhile to start installing a few addons to FS98 to see if the machine can cope.

Alan

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21. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-08-03, 16:51z 

Hi Alan,

<<When you talk so dismissively of the Athlon 1600, it makes me feel truly left out of things...>>

It wasn't meant dismissively - honest. The Athlon 1600 is not a cutting-edge processor whereas the Ti4600 is a very fast graphics card so it was only the combination of the two I felt to be inappropriate. The Athlon 1600 in a FS98 system would be wonderful of course.

I didn't see your message about W2000 but even if I had remember I use XP which is quite different. I'm pleased to see you've resolved the problem. Any reason you chose W2000 over XP?

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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22. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-08-03, 18:03z 

Hi Ray,

>I didn't see your message about W2000 but even if I had
>remember I use XP which is quite different. I'm pleased to
>see you've resolved the problem. Any reason you chose
>W2000 over XP?

Yes, a very good one. XP was put on it first, and removed within a week because the whole machine was unusably slow and unresponsive. Both the speed and the enlarged instruction set of P4 class CPUs allow Win XP to perform reasonably, but on a Pentium 1 equivalent, although XP will run (by emulating the P4 instruction set) it is worse than useless.

Alan

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23. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-08-03, 21:28z 

Hi Alan,

Thanks for the explanation. I assume you have plenty of memory. Both W2000 and XP are very memory hungry. 512Mb seems to be the optimum although a few people do have 1Gb but of course this won't do anything for frame rates in FS.


Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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24. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-09-03, 17:59z 

Hi Ray -

Pardon me for jumping into this discussion, but I was trying to follow your comments about the Ti4600. I checked the Dabs.com site you mentioned, and found a Ti4800, but no Ti4600. Since I am in the US, I went over to Pricewatch.com, where you can find a number of listings for both cards from a number of suppliers at a variety of prices. Can you help sort out which is which? Which ones can support dual monitors? I would be thinking of using this with an Athlon 1900+/512 mb ram computer, currently using a GeForce3Ti200 from MSI. Would you expect to see much difference?

Thanks.

William

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25. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-09-03, 19:23z 

Hi Bill,

The Ti4600 has been replaced by the slightly faster Ti4800, the main difference being the slightly faster clock speed. In all other respects it appears to be an identical card. AGPx8, 128Mb of memory, Twin RAMDACs for dual monitor support - 1 DVI, 1 VGA output so you'll need a DVI-VGA Belkin adapter if you have 2 CRT displays.

Compared to a GeForce3 Ti4200 don't expect to see frame rates increase. What you will see are faster texture redraws when you switch aerial views. I previously had a Matrox G400 32Mb card and the transformation was marked. It won't be as obvious with your faster Ti200 but it will be a worthwhile upgrade especially if you have quality displays that can run at 1280*960 or greater. The cheaper Ti4200 (128Mb variant) may still support dual-displays (check before buying) but will have a slower clock speed and again, frame rates will be little different to the Ti4600.

I have a Athlon 2000XP/512Mb combo with 2 19" CRT displays and the Ti4600 allows me to run at 1600*1200 on the primary and 1440*1080 on the secondary. Show me a TFT that can run at those resolutions and won't break the bank.

The prices on the Ti4800 seem quite reasonable compared to what I paid a year ago so it looks like a good buy.


Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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26. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-11-03, 00:07z 

Thanks Ray -

I appreciate the input, as always. I would like to get two monitors working, and may take the plunge. I see a number of variants of these video cards from different manufacturers, at different prices. Do you have any experience or view on "generic" versus "name brand" cards?

Regards,

William

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27. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-11-03, 16:22z 

Hi Bill,

At the time I bought my Ti4600 there were very few manufacturers to choose from but my decision to buy a Creative Labs card was not a bad one at all. I would personally avoid the unbranded versions as there is a lot more to a card than the chipset. Recommended brands include Gainward (probably the best but with prices to match), Creative and Asus. All these are available from Dabs.com.

Hope that helps and I hope you enjoy the second screen. I can't imagine life without it now. Had one for about 5 years!

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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28. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-12-03, 02:09z 

Hi Ray -

Sorry to just keep throwing out the questions - but ... I am digging in to this a bit tonight, and have discovered a couple of things. First, the video card I have seems to be a GF3 Ti-200 with 128mb. I thought it was 64mb - as the original invoice stated. But it was swapped out 6 mos. after I bought it when it failed, and now shows up as 128 mb. Who knows? But it still apears to be a 4x AGP card.

Second my motherboard is an MSI K7T266 Pro-2, which according to the manual has an AGP port capable of supporting up to 4X.

So - doesn't this mean that 8X video cards such as the GF4 Ti 4600 and 4800, won't work properly. Am I limited to the 4X video card I have?

But - I discovered the the video card seems to have a digital port, in addition to the standard VGA port. Does this mean I should be able to get a DVI-VGA adapter, and nonetheless arrive at a configuration that will support two monitors? (The manual is silent about this.)

I apologize for the questions, but any help you can offer is appreciated.

William

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29. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-12-03, 08:57z 

Hi Bill,

I'm surprised the GF3 has 128Mb of memory. I thought it was limited to 64mb. What utility are you using to show this? I use SiSoft Sandra to interrogate my system. www.sisoftware.co.uk/

I also have the MSI K7T266 Pro2 so don't worry about compatibility. When they talk about AGP8X they mean up to 8X. The mobo will happily accept the Ti4600 or 4800.

You will need an adapter if you're going to use two CRT monitors. Dabs sell a Belkin adapter - Pro Series DVI Adaptor DV-I M/ HDDB15F-DVI TO VGA - for £14. This is the one I use to feed two 19" CRTs.

Hope that helps to alleviate any fears :-)

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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30. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-12-03, 13:19z 

Hi Ray -

Wow. That SiSoftware Sandra is a very neat program. It confirmed, however, that the GF3 Ti200 I have has 128 mb:

SiSoftware Sandra

Video Adapter
Model : NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti 200
Chipset : GeForce3 Ti 200
RAMDAC : Integrated RAMDAC
Video BIOS : Version 3.20.0028
VGA Compatible : No
Total Memory : 128MB (127MB Video) (64MB AGP)
Texture Memory : 191MB
Supports DIME Texturing : Yes

I was getting the same information by checking Display Properties/Settings/Advanced/Adapter under Control Panel.

I still haven't confirmed whether this card can drive bothe output ports simultaneously. If so, it looks like I'm off today to try to find a DVI-VGA adapter. I'll check the local prices on the Ti4600/4800 at the sane time. From what I have seen on-line so far, the 4800 seems to be available around $180US, which is quite remarkable.

You might want to check out this interesting review on the MSI Ti4800, found at the Anandtech.com website:

http://www.vr-zone.com/reviews/MSI/Ti4800SE/

By the way, I really appreciate being able to turn to the folks on this forum such as yourself for this kind of support.

Regards,

William

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31. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-12-03, 17:03z 

Hi Bill,

<<It confirmed, however, that the GF3 Ti200 I have has 128 mb: >>

At the risk of disappointing you I'm afraid the GF3 Ti200 does only have 64Mb of memory. That entry you pasted is misleading but here's the clue...Total Memory : 128MB (127MB Video) (64MB AGP)

It's the AGP memory that is the clue. It's definitely only 64Mb. I don't know why they include that first value but it is misleading. I'm almost certain that this card cannot support dual-displays - you will need the Ti4xxx series to achieve this - hence the higher cost.

The MSI is a good choice and I see it includes a DVI/VGA adapter so you won't need the Belkin if you decide on it.

Thanks for the appreciation. This place in its various guises has been very helpful to me too. Let us know how you get on. BTW, what spec are your two monitors? The Ti4800 can support very high resolutions but needs quality displays to achieve this.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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32. "RE: Appreciation"
04-12-03, 20:02z 

Greetings:

>>By the way, I really appreciate being able to turn to the folks on this
>>forum such as yourself for this kind of support.
>
> Thanks for the appreciation. This place in its various guises has been
> very helpful to me too.

We're of course very happy that folks find the VPC useful. However, please keep in mind that we're completely member-supported. We're not CompuServe nor AOL, so we don't have the resources to keep throwing at this place to keep it open forever. While we'll never shut down because someone in management thinks it's a good idea to do so, the lack of support will. It's simple economics.

We've been here for nearly a year and a half, and open to the public for a year now. But it seems our message isn't getting out and folks either don't understand our situation or perhaps most don't think what we have here is worth $2.95 a month.

If you do find the VPC useful and want to see it continue and grow, it's time to show you love and be counted by becoming a Crew member. As an added incentive to our regular Crew benefits (email, web mail, wap mail, Crew-only events, downloads, CD-ROM, etc.), we've made special arrangements with Flying Magazine and we'll include a one year subscription with your paid VPC Crew Membership.

You can sign up here:

https://www.flightadventures.com/cgi-bin/pilot_shop/index3.html

Thanks for your consideration!

Ben


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34. "RE: Appreciation"
04-13-03, 11:10z 

Hi Ben,

I understand the need for income to make the site financially viable. I know servers don't come free and money has to be found for all the hardware. However, as well as member donations have you considered advertising as another source of income? I don't mean annoying popups for a bingo game but adverts for FS-related software and hardware which might also make the membership aware of things they might not otherwise know about.

I don't know what proportion of your membership pays a monthly fee or in fact what the membership numbers are. Based on the frequency of posted messages on the FSForum (the only one I visit) it would seem to be quite low.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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41. "RE: Appreciation"
04-13-03, 23:02z 

Greetings Ray:

> I understand the need for income to make the site financially viable.

We're just looking to break even! As I've said, if we can't do that we simply can't continue down this path.


> I know servers don't come free and money has to be found for all the
> hardware.

We've already invested in servers, software, etc., so we're not looking for compensation for that. We're only looking looking for covering rising ISP costs. To give you an idea, our bandwidth usage has increased 600% since we started, yet our "income"/memberships to pay for it has not increased. In fact as of this month, our 1 year anniversary, we have 80% fewer registrations as we enter our 2nd year. It's not a model that can be sustained. (I'll take this time to remind folks that it's time to renew their Crew Memberships.) :)


> However, as well as member donations have you considered
> advertising as another source of income? I don't mean annoying popups
> for a bingo game but adverts for FS-related software and hardware which
> might also make the membership aware of things they might not otherwise
> know about.

We've been, and are actively pursuing that, but unless you're looking to host porn ads, get rich quick schemes and gambling ads, the pool for ads you suggest is extremely small and unless we try and compete with AvSim etc. selling the same stuff they sell, ads themselves won't help as much as people think they might. The bottom line is days of Internet advertising as a viable source of income are gone.


> I don't know what proportion of your membership pays a monthly fee or in
> fact what the membership numbers are. Based on the frequency of posted
> messages on the FSForum (the only one I visit) it would seem to be quite
> low.

Our hit counts indicate that we have many more lurkers than posters. It also seems that the number of poster that are members are is very small too. Just look for the bars and you'll see what I mean.

I hope this clears up our need for members.

Thanks!

Ben

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36. "RE: Appreciation"
04-13-03, 11:33z 

Hi Ben -

Okay, okay. You got me. I've gone back and forth with the amount of time that I have put into flight simming, and my use of this forum. But ultimately I have come to rely on it - and the people here - being available, and have felt free to count on these reasources. So - I guess it's time to ante up.

William

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42. "RE: Appreciation"
04-13-03, 23:02z 

Thanks, William!

The new bar next to that set of wings looks great!

Welcome to the Crew!

Ben


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35. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-13-03, 11:19z 

Hi Ray -

Well, it seems you may be right. A Belkin adapter succeeds in getting the second monitor (an older Sony Multiscan 15 sf) to fire up, but the screen has a nasty green palor, and doesn't show up under display properties when connected to the DVI-VGA adapter, so I can't find any way to adjust it. It doesn't seem as if Windows knows it is looking at two monitors. The first monitor (ViewSonic PS790 19") is analog, and displays properly.

I would definately consider the Ti4800 - but the last post about waiting for FS9 gives me pause. I wonder . . . .

William

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47. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-22-03, 10:14z 

Hi Bill

>> I would definately consider the Ti4800 - but the last post about waiting for FS9 gives me pause. I wonder . . . .<<


My apologies for any confusion over this particular graphics card <s>. I'm not sure as to whether this is available as both a 128Mb and a 256Mb card. If it's available in both versions then I would go for the 256 one.

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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48. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-23-03, 18:23z 

> I'm not sure as to whether this is
>available as both a 128Mb and a 256Mb card. If it's
>available in both versions then I would go for the 256
>one.

Good grief! 256 Mb? Is that what FS9 is going to want? For sure, I am going to watch this one for a while, and see what information comes out publicly, before I decide which direction to go. (The card we were discussing is the Ti4800, a GeForce 4 card with 128 mb. I have not seen it in a 256 mb configuration. Nor do I see many other 256 mb cards.)

Regards,

William

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51. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-25-03, 20:50z 

Hi Bill,

The Matrox Perelhia (which can run 3 monitors with VERY little loss if any to frame rates) comes in either a 128 or 256 card. As to FS9/2004?? well you have me there <LOL>.

Regards,

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49. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-24-03, 09:41z 

James,

The only card that has 256Mb of on-board memory to my knowledge is the Matrox Parhelia and that will set you back over £400 ($600).

I'd be very surprised if FS9 required 256Mb cards to run efficiently - 128Mb should be more than adequate. It's the processor that may require upgrading and I see AMD has just announced big price cuts in their XP range which is very good news.


Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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52. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-25-03, 20:50z 

Hi Ray,

Yep, as I just told Bill, the Matrox is the only one I've seen. I just bought the 128 at £350 (ish) a day or so before the 256 came out!! As to your remark on FS9(?) I'm not sure <s>. My main PC is a 1.4 AMD Athlon and I've no gripes at present <G>. Bearing in mine AMD's price cut's then I may get around to building another <s>.

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53. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-26-03, 14:05z 

Hi James,

My comments on upgrading the processor for FS9 (the quick name for FS-COF) are based on the assumption that few of us run with default aircraft and default airports. When I revert to the stock B737 at a default airport in FS2002 the frame rates are great but switching to the 767PIC at Gary Summons' Manchester or London airport with lots of Ai aircraft can half the rates. Hence my comment about more processing power.

I hope you're pleased with the Parhelia. Got three 18" TFTs running off it yet? Pete has and it's hugely impressive.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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56. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-27-03, 14:09z 

Hi Ray,

I get similar results with this pc in 2002 and I may well upgrade to a faster processor in the not to distant future <S>

As to Pete, well, he's got 3 up on me at present <lol>. I'll have to clock up some more overtime before I go that route <G>

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54. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-26-03, 22:55z 

Hi Ray and others

Well, having just said that I'd probably wait until next year to upgrade my video card a sudden rash of "to hell with it" struck me yesterday and I went out and bought an MSI Ti4200 with 128MB of memory. As expected there's been no obvious difference in frame rates but there appears to be a slight improvement in picture quality on monitor 1 and a huge improvement in picture quality on monitor 2. This was after I swapped out the standard 250 watt power supply from the main PC for the 300 watt power supply in the no. 2 PC. There was no mention on the box that 300 watts was required. When I first booted up with the new card both screens worked fine at the default 800x600 but when I upped the resolutions to 1280x1024 and rebooted all I got was a couple of very blank screens. On re-booting I found myself in the bios with a flashing message saying that boot up had been automatically suspended because the cpu setting was not consistent with the cpu fitted. Somehow the lack of power had reset the cpu setting in the bios from the 1600MHz it should have been to 1200MHz. On changing the psu and correcting the cpu setting all worked OK but it caused a slight heart murmur at the time.

Drivers supplied with the card are v.3100, slightly long in the tooth but I see no need to upgrade at this stage because everything's working OK and I was using v.3082 with the GeForce3 Ti500 with no problems.

Ray, I'm delighted to see your message that AMD have dropped the price of their cpus. This might, then, be a good time to swap out my 1600+ for something a bit faster. Can anyone out there with a bit of savvy tell me if this is as simple as just buying a faster one and swapping them over or do I have to worry about socket types. I hope that, since my 1600+ is only a little over a year old, the socket is the same. The rest of the system is still pretty much OK I would think - 512MB of RAM, winXP Home.

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55. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-27-03, 13:49z 

Hi Paul,

You'll be pleased to hear that swapping out a low-end AMD Athlon XP like yout XP1600 for a slightly better one such as the XP2000 or XP2100 is incredibly straightforward. All processors in the Athlon XP series are designed to fit "Socket A" on a motherboard.

However, jumping from the XP1600 to anything better than the XP2100 may cause problems because of different design of the chips after this stage and the varying FSBs of the chips (ie. if your motherboard was designed for the era of XP1600-XP2000 CPUs it will be too old to take advantage of the more modern Athlon XPs such as the XP2400).

It's also worth bearing in mind that you may need to update your BIOS so that a CPU later than the XP1600 is actually supported and can be selected in the BIOS set-up program and you'll also probably need to buy a new heatsink/fan unit because I very much doubt the heatsink/fan you're using with the XP1600 is capable of adequately cooling anything later in the Athlon XP series.

I recently bought a new fan for my Athlon XP2000 CPU - it's pretty quiet (rated 28dBA) and whilst it's not that fast (rated 2500rpm) it keeps the CPU below 60 deg C when at 100% utilisation (and the retail package only cost ~£17 from a British computer hardware website).

I think the first thing you should do before considering installing a new CPU would be to check your motherboard manufacturer's website and find out whether or not they have released a BIOS which supports more modern Athlon XP CPUs than the one you have at the minute.

Good luck.

-Stephen.

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58. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-28-03, 11:46z 

Hi Stephen

Thanks for the advice. The cpu settings in the bios are for 1200 or 1600 only so clearly the mobo bios, at least, will need upgrading as well. Time to do some research again ...

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57. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-27-03, 14:10z 

HI Paul,

Nice card but, thought you'd have gone that little bit more for the Ti4800!!

As to the CPU It would all depend as to whether your board would accept anything above 1600?? But no doubt some one (Ray) will now shoot me down in flames with this remark <LOL>.

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59. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-28-03, 11:46z 

Hi James

I did think about it but wondered, in the end, whether it would make any difference since the main limiting factor in FS02, so we're told, is the cpu. Since the Ti4200 should be better than the outgoing GeForce3 Ti500, then the Ti4800 would not, apparently, give any advantage over the Ti4200 for FS02 so why pay more for something which gives no benefit? When faced with this sort of situation I am reminded of what Richard Gere said to Julia Roberts in Pretty Woman when she asked him why he stayed in the penthouse apartment if he hated heights? Answer: "Because it's the best." I sometimes think we can fall into that trap when buying computer hardware.

Would I get better performance with the Ti4800 than the Ti4200 in FS2002? Have I made a mistake?

Paul

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60. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-28-03, 16:32z 

Hi Paul,

I see your reasoning in the choice of cards <s> Always boils down to the same thing in the end "cash" :-)

I was thinking more into the future with the release of the next FS version :-)

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66. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-30-03, 00:09z 

Hi James

By the time I've made up my mind whether or not to upgrade to CoF I suspect that I'll be ready for a new box and the current one will become the number 2 PC. No point in overspeccing it at this stage.

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67. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-30-03, 20:52z 

Hi Paul,

True, I'm still debating as to which of my 8 I'm gonna update first OR just go get a few more Matrox Perhelia's and drop a machine or two or three <LOL>?!

May then catch up (sort of) with Mel and Pete <lol>

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62. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-28-03, 21:57z 

Hi Jimbo!

I'm not going to do that. :-) Paul can upgrade to a 2100 max with his current mobo but I doubt he'll do it as the leap is not very great.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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63. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-29-03, 15:44z 

Hi Ray,

Just been into see about upgrading an AMD Athlon 1600+ (actually a 1.4 at present) to a 2400+ XP! Cheep (£100), but still can't decide <s>


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64. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-29-03, 21:49z 

Hi Jimbo,

Will your current mobo take a 2400+? Check the BIOS. I thought the limit was 2100. That equates to around 50% improvement which for £100 sounds reasonable if it will fit.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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68. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-30-03, 20:52z 

Hi Ray,

Well according to the numpty in the shop he said it will (after I mentioned BIOS Update)?? I'm still looking for the manual on these two boards to see what they will take. If not then I'll wait a bit and do a board and CPU upgrade.

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70. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-01-03, 21:43z 

Jimbo,

Please keep us informed on your progress.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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76. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-03-03, 11:38z 

The best place to check for the specification of a motherboard and to find out whether or not new a new BIOS is available that allows the use of newer components would be the manufacturer's website - assuming they're a fairly well-known brand and offer free support services such as BIOS updates and technical documentation.

-Stephen.

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61. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-28-03, 21:55z 

Hi Paul,

Sorry about my late arrival.

Strange messages re the cpu setting. I've not seen that myself but when I built this latest pc I had a 300watt power supply so that seems to have saved me from your fate. I can relate to the heart mumur - I've had a few myself over the years :-(

You might like to try the Omega drivers. These take a little of the fram erates but the improvement in image quality is significant. I've runwith them for months now and wouldn't revert. Pete first brought them to my attention via his "Old Farts" group so they come with a good recommendation <g>.

You can get them here...www.omegacorner.com/ Just be sure to follow the tips and choose Quality not Performance when installing them.

It's bad news on the cpu front as Stephen has intimated. Anything faster than a 2100 requires a new mobo so it doesn't seem worthwhile upgrading unless you decide to go down that route. I think I'll upgrade to a MSI nForce2 board sometime this year with a faster processor and leave it at that. A full system upgrade is too early and too costly when most of my current components are more than adequate. I usually defer from upgrading until I can double my processor power but that isn't possible without spending a huge amount of money which I'm not prepared to do.

BTW, what resolution are you running on the 2nd monitor and is it a CRT or TFT?

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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65. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-30-03, 00:09z 

Hi Ray

That's interesting news re the Omega drivers, I'll check them out shortly.

The cpu upgrade does appear to look as though a new mobo will be required for a worthwhile improvement. Atm I suspect that I'll hang back on upgrading to FS CoF for a while to see what improvements it offers. I'm currently more than happy with FS2002. Gary Summons's scenery, PIC767, wxRE Active Sky weather and VATSIM still keep me very entertained and, although frame rates can dip rather low at some of the airports, the plane always remains flyable courtesy of FS02's much better smoothness over previous incarnations.

If I follow the same routine I've tended to keep to over the last few years I will probably buy a new 'box' round about February time, the current 1600+ will become my number 2 PC and my son will inherit the 800. Like you, I won't be needing monitors, keyboards, etc, so the upgrade cost should be very reasonable for a top flight system.

The main screen is an 18" LCD running at 1280x1024 and 60 MHz, the no. 2 screen is a 19" iiYama running at 1280x960 at 85 MHz. Now that this is all working so well I've made space on the desktop to run all the VATSIM comms off the laptop (Sony Vaio Athlon 1500+) so I now have 3 screens in total.

It's all a long way removed from MSFS 5.0 and a DX2 66 (or was that the P133?)

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69. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-01-03, 21:42z 

Hi Paul,

I wish I had your self-control. I'll be buying FSCOF as soon as it's available. Those clouds just look to good to resist. And I'm crossing my fingers that the 767PIC will work and once I've paid the relevant spondulicks to Pete for FSUIPC I'll have my 747MCP working too. Then I'll start worrying about hardware upgrades :-)

That 18" TFT does sound appealing but I've only had my Iiyama Pro 454 19" a year now and the Sony 19" still keeps producing decent quality images so I'm reluctant to part with either. Actually if you need higher resolutions on the 2nd monitor you should be able to push it up to 1440*1080 @ 85Hz as the Ti4600 has sufficient memory. Useful extra space for undocked 767PIC panels.

I'm still waiting to pluck up the courage to try my first VATSIM flight. I need to go around to Vulcan's to see how it's done by an expert! In the meantime I use Radar Contact v3 which is a really nice piece of software.

Ah yes, FS5. My first PC was procured just over 10 years ago (a 486 SX33) and I can remember vividly the wonderful frame rates of around 4fps! The good old days - NOT!! <g>

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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71. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-01-03, 22:48z 

Hi Ray

In truth I probably won't be far behind you in the queue for CoF. However, I find that the clouds I'm getting now, through wxRE ActiveSky with some improved textures, are extremely good.

I don't blame you for keeping your 2 good monitors. If you've got the room there's no need to change.

Once you've tried VASTSIM you'll be well and truly hooked. Get round to Vulcan's now and find out what's involved.

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72. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-01-03, 23:30z 

> once I've paid the relevant
> spondulicks to Pete for FSUIPC I'll have my 747MCP working too.

While you're at it, don't forget about the VPC! :)

C'mon guys, time to join up for the first time, and renew your Crew memberships. The show of support from our Membership drive has been pathetic. Renewals haven't been much better.

Ben


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74. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-02-03, 18:21z 

Hi Ben,

<<While you're at it, don't forget about the VPC!>>

If I came here on a regular basis and if the message boards were more lively I would certainly consider it. But, most of the time I'm elsewhere and when I do chip in it's more likely I'll give advice and an opinion rather than ask for help although I have appreciated the help Bob Church gave me with my CH gear.

As I've said before perhaps advertising should be considered. The only area I visit is the message boards and the chat is a fraction of that we had with CompuServe's FS Forum.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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79. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-04-03, 18:35z 

Hi Ray,

>>If I came here on a regular basis and if the message boards were more
lively I would certainly consider it.<<

It's too bad that your criteria are as such. I look at it a different way. Not only do I volunteer my time here, but I pay membership dues as well. I do this because I have yet to find one other FS related site as comfortable as our beloved FSFORUM on Compuserve. Sure, the message traffic may not be that great (YET) but neither was the FSFORUM's the last 2 years of it's existence. Even with other options, we still ponied up the $$ to Compuserve, right up to the end. Why? Because it was our home.

The idea behind the VPC was not to exist in competition with other FS related sites, it was created to fill the void left by the closing of FSFORUM. We aren't about huge file libraries either...let others shoulder that bandwidth burden. We exist because it provides a pleasant, and comfortable place to share ideas, help others, get help, or just simply chit-chat. I'm proud to say that as a sysop here, I have yet to remove one single message from the public board in the last year and a half! There's no whining, bickering, flaming, etc. That's a testament to the caliber caliber of members here.

Unfortunately however, we cannot continue to grow if we do not exist. Ben chose the donation/membership model simply because he did not want the members deluged with ADs when accessing the board. I was with him 100% with this decision, and still am. Forget about the fact that unless you advertise porn or gambling sites, AD revenue is a pittance of what it used to be. He did it for the members, and no other reason. That decision forced him to pay the expenses of running the VPC out his own pocket. Other sites ask for donations as well, but what do you get if you donate?

At least, we try to make donating more valuable by providing something tangible. For less than (US) 10 cents/day you get a FlightAdventures pop3 email account, a subscription to Flying Magazine, access to other areas on the site (if your're so inclined), a cd with a registered version of our OLR and other goodies, as well as public recognition on the board by way of your "Crew" icon on each of your posts. Speaking of the OLR, did I mention that we are the only FS related site that I know of that has one? :) This was done purely with ex-compuserve/OzWin users in mind. That was no small undertaking, I can assure you.

Ray, please don't read this as if I'm picking on you. I'm taking this opportunity to get the word out again to everyone. If you don't have the desire to donate, that's your prerogative. This board does not require that. However, the board *is* supported by crew memberships, and without them it will cease to exist. It's a simple matter of economics, and it's not fair to expect that "others" (particularly Ben) will pick up the tab. If you (or anyone) find any value in this forum at all, I urge you to donate so we can grow. 30US$ per *YEAR* is not alot of money for most of us. Think of how much many of us spend on FS addons and it may put things into perspective.

To close here, once again I want to extend a special thanks to Ben for at least giving this a shot for us old timers, and new FSers alike!

Best Always,

--Greenie
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81. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-05-03, 06:28z 

Hi Mike

PMFJI - Very well said. (BTW - doesn't this merit another thread?) I have to say that I was very surprised to read Ray's views on this. The measure of around 10 cents per day puts the contribution into perspective.

One thing that I have been wondering about the relative silence on the forum, which Ray refers to, is -
Do you have any way of measuring how many readers there are each day on average?

'Lurking' in the privacy of our homes provides very little idea of how active a community we are. I see there are over 1000 members but do they still visit on a regular basis?

Best regards
Frank

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84. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-07-03, 04:09z 

Hi Paul,

>>doesn't this merit another thread?<<

Done! I should have done that in the first place. Thanks.


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85. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-07-03, 10:11z 

HI 'O' Green thing <s>,

Any chance of you moving the rest of this topic over to the new thread mate as it looks a bit confusing with replies etc!!

Regards,

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82. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-05-03, 12:09z 

Hi Mike,

Crikey, quite a reply. I'm not entirely sure your response is best placed within such a large thread. You might consider creating a new thread as suggested by Frank to make more members aware of the forum's predicament.

I accept that there's a lot more to membership than other sites offer. But, unless there's a reasonable amount of discussion taking place (which clearly at present there isn't), the addition of an OLR seems overkill. I can quite easily keep up to date by visiting twice weekly. Something that wouldn't have been advisable in the days when FSForum was active on CompuServe. Looking back a couple of months I see there was an average of 13 new topics posted per month in March and April on FSForum. That is a fraction of the old days and although I don't know how many members you have who pay subs it strikes me most remain a member of the silent majority club.

Now compare that amount of discussion to AvSim's and the difference is huge. I readily accept that quantity doesn't equate to quality but on AvSim not only is there a general discussion section for FS there are specialist fora for Radar Contact, 767PIC and other high-profile packages. The boards are moderated (too excessively at times for my liking) but the number of idiots are definitely in the minority and there is plenty of quality discussion.

AvSim and SimFlight both have high profiles in the FS world. This isn't meant to take anything away from FlightAdventures which is trying to fill a niche market. But as with all things that are small but of high quality it is difficult to survive in a mass market. I'm not aware of being blitzed by adverts when I visit AvSim so if they can manage should it be beyond the capabilities of FlightAdventures?

I respect yourself and Ben (plus any others who have dedicated their time and effort to creating and maintaining this site) but the bottom line is that unless there is more quality discussion here I can't consider membership. I have no need for the benefits that membership brings - at the end of the day it's the chat that keeps a site going and without that it's always going to be difficult.

I'm sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but should the amount of discussion pick up I will certainly reconsider my position.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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73. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-01-03, 23:57z 

Hi Ray

As a point of interest would you do me a favour please? When I undock the panels from the PIC and place them on screen 2 I'm getting a hell of a frame rate hit.

Obviously it's not possible for us to equate like with like, there are too many variables, but, for example, if I sit in the PIC at Meigs, rwy36, with my setup I get frame rates of c.18-20 but if I then undock the panels and place them on the second screen, the frame rates dip to c.13-15, i.e. a reduction of about 75%.

Question1 : what percentage reduction do you get when you do this, if any?
Question 2: do you think it's caused by the cpu having more work to do or by an underpowered video card - i.e. should I have bought the Ti4800 after all, rather than the Ti4200?

Many thanks

Paul Croft
10 miles SE of Heathrow (EGLL)

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75. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-03-03, 11:13z 

Hi Paul,

I've performed a check at Meigs rwy 36 with the PIC767 with no cloud. Here's my frame rates: -

Normal front view with only main panel visible - 21.
No panel view (i.e. W pressed twice) - 25.
Normal forward view + FMC undocked - 21.
Same + FMC and EHSI undocked - 18.
Normal forward view + o'head - 21.
Normal forward view + pedestel - 20.

As you can see the frame rate hit is nominal. I've tried full-screen view compared to my normal windowed view and the difference was again nominal.

Does this reduction happen with default aircraft panels? The hit you're getting seems excessive and although the Ti4200 isn't quite the same as the Ti4600 I'd be surprised if that was the reason. What happens if you undock the panels but leave them on the primary display? Does the hit only happen when you drag them to the second display?

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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77. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-03-03, 18:28z 

Hi Ray

Thanks for your results.

There is no frame rate hit when I open the overhead, fmc or pedestal but, as soon as I drag them to the second monitor, frame rates take the dive reported. If I do this with the GeF3 driving the main monitor and the Matrox Millenium driving the second monitor there is no frame rate hit at all.

Full screen view makes no difference at all to frame rates.

Paul Croft
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78. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-03-03, 21:15z 

Hi Paul,

Two possibilities here as I see it.

1. The Ti4200 is causing a frame rate hit.

2. The combination of TFT/CRT is causing the problem.

If you can temporarily swap the TFT for a CRT so you have two CRTs being fed this would probably give you the answer. If the frame rate hit continues then it's the Ti4200. If the problem is resolved then it's the TFT/CRT combo that's to blame.

You will need a DVI/VGA adapter but maybe a local supplier can lend you one.

Hope that helps. I'd be very interested to hear the outcome.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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80. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-05-03, 00:34z 

Hi Ray

I've sussed out the reason for the unexpected dive in frame rates. The no. 1 monitor had Quincunx anti-aliasing enabled and the no.2 monitor did not. As soon as both monitors had the same level of AA enabled the frame rate reduction was similar to yours.

I've also tried out the drivers from Omega. Didn't see any obvious improvement in quality.

I've also switched back to the GeForce 3 Ti500 card with the Matrox Millennium driving the second monitor and tested this with both the latest Omega 'Quality' drivers, the Omega 'Performance' drivers and the tried and trusted 30.82s.

Result: on my system the GeForce 3 Ti500 (with 30.82s)+Matrox provides the best combination. I think the biggest stumbling block here is that the cpu must take a hit when the second monitor has to display the extra panels and, whether they are displayed with 2 cards or one, the frame rates will suffer.

With that in mind I decided that, regardless of the graphics card, I was never going to get a significant improvement over my current set up until I had a cpu capable of delivering a substantial improvement over the current 1600+. Accordingly I wrapped up the Ti4200 and, 'cap in hand' took it back from whence it came. The very nice man in the shop gave me back a full refund, even though there is a clear sign displayed saying that there would be a 15% levy on all goods returned where nothing was wrong with the product. Must have been my lucky day.

Now to monitor the computer fairs and see if I can't pick up a better PCI card than the Matrox Millennium for a 'song'.

Thanks for your, and everyone else's, input on this. Although I've ended up back where I started it's been a valuable lesson and at least I know that there's, currently, nothing to be gained by spending out on just a *better* graphics card. It seems as though I have a very well balanced system. I'll put the money saved towards the next major upgrade, as and when I find out just what the demands of CoF are going to be.

Paul Croft
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83. "RE: Which graphics card?"
05-05-03, 12:18z 

Hi Paul,

I'm pleased to hear you've resolved the frame rate problem. I wouldn't have guessed it was an AA thing. I'm surprised you didn't see any improvement in the Omega drivers but no matter.

The only real hit on the 2nd monitor regarding the 767PIC panels is the EHSI. Things tend to stutter a bit when that gauge is displayed. I always turn it off on finals to minimise this problem.

I'm surprised but pleased to hear you managed to get a refund on the Ti4200. Certainly this shows the benefits of dealing with a small guy as opposed to Dabs et al who would definitely have charged. I think you may struggle to find a decent PCI card to match the Matrox. The Elsa Gladiac was recently available but getting drivers to work with it was difficult according to Lee James. I'd be inclined to stay with what you have until you upgrade the processor then consider the Ti4800 or the Radeon 9800. 128Mb will help a lot with FS2004 I suspect once we have those new shiny clouds.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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38. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-13-03, 15:12z 

Hi Ray -

If I can try one more question, before putting this to bed. I have discovered that I can get an old Diamond Monster Fusion PCI garphics card to work, after a fashion. However, the Sony Multiscan 15sf monitor still shows a terrible greenish cast - whether I driver it with the Monster Fusion card, or the GF3 Ti200. Windows XP doesn't seem to identify the monitor properly, and insists on installing the "default monitor." I can find no other drivers on the Internet, or other workaround. Perhaps the monitor is too old. But I wondered if you or any of the other gurus out there had any other ideas (besides spending for another monitor).

Thanks.

William

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39. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-13-03, 15:35z 

Bill,

I'm afraid I can't cast any light on why you are getting this green cast on the Sony. It may be down to Windows not being able to identify it correctly. If the Sony won't work even with a single feed from the Ti200 I'd be inclined to think it had developed a fault. Can you try it on a friend's system and see if it works okay there? You could also try borowing another monitor and see if that cures the problem. If it does then the Sony is probably faulty.

On the subject of the Ti200 the dual connections are only there to be compatible with either a digital or analogue cable - not to serve two monitors. That requires twin RAMDACs and I think you'll find the Ti200 doesn't have them.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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43. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-14-03, 13:46z 

Hi Ray -

I suspect Windows, rather than the monitor. It displayed fine on another PC (running Windows 98) up until I gave it away a few months ago. Somehow, I think Windows XP doesn't have the proper information to identify the monitor. It is several years old (when 15" was considered large!), and I can't find much available on the web to help. I tried it on a laptop with Windows 2000, and it displayed fine during bootup, until the OS kicked in and switched back to the TFT screen. Of course, then the laptop couldn't identify the Sony monitor either. I feel like I'm in a slow spiral downward . . .

William

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40. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-13-03, 17:58z 

> Hi Ray -
>
> If I can try one more question, before putting this to bed. I have
> discovered that I can get an old Diamond Monster Fusion PCI garphics
> card to work, after a fashion. However, the Sony Multiscan 15sf monitor
> still shows a terrible greenish cast - whether I driver it with the

Hi William -

Check the pins on the connector cable. Many times a bent pin, or a "skinny" one will not give the proper contact and you'll get a general red/green or blue cast. I've found that lightly squeezing each pin with a needle nose can help.

Of course, there may be many other reasons but this is a start.

HTH,

Vic


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33. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-12-03, 22:49z 

Hi Bill et al,

Sorry for jumping in her <s> BUT, I personally would lay off buying any new Graphics Cards until the next version of FS is released! I say this with some ........... hang fire <s>.

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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37. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-13-03, 12:38z 

James,

I'm interested as to why you think anyone should hold off buying a Ti4800 before the release of FS9.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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44. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-14-03, 14:20z 

Hi Ray,

>> I'm interested as to why you think anyone should hold off buying a Ti4800 before the release of FS9. <<

Sorry mate, I take it the Ti4800 is either a geforce 3 OR higher?? If so then if you want it buy it and sorry but can't really delve into this more at present hence the response "wait till next FS versions released"

Apologies for the vagueness of the response :-)

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45. "RE: Which graphics card?"
04-14-03, 22:18z 

James,

<<Sorry mate, I take it the Ti4800 is either a geforce 3 OR higher?? If so then if you want it buy it and sorry but can't really delve into this more at present hence the response "wait till next FS versions released" >>

Sorry James but that statement is extremely vague and not really helpful at all. The Ti4600/Ti4800 are GeForce4-based and are extremely fast cards.

With FS-COF due out in July it would be foolish of Microsoft if they changed things so radically that the GeForce4 Ti with 128Mb of memory was not sufficiently powerful to run FS COF.

Remember too that the graphics card is secondary in importance to the processor which should always be as fast as possible.

It sounds to me as though you're under an NDA so I don't expect a detailed reply.

Regards,

Ray Proudfoot,
Cheshire, England

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