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"Left Seat, Right Seat"

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BillC[Crew]

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"Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-10-02, 18:59z 

Hi Ben...

Reading that interesting thread re brakes, one thought struck me - I have never seen any reference to this LH seat/RH seat arrangement.

Here's a couple of questions from a non-pilot...

Why the Left hand seat for the PIC ? Is it tradition - or was it a manufacturers choice to start with ?

Why is the configuration reversed in heli's ?

Is it also true that helis manufactured in the US rotate in the opposite direction to those of European origin ?

Thanks !

Regards

BillC
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  Table of Contents

  Subject      Author      Message Date     ID   
  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-10-02 1
   RE: Left Seat, Right Seat AlanParkinson[Guest] 07-11-02 2
        RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-11-02 4
   RE: Left Seat, Right Seat BillC[Crew] 07-11-02 5
        RE: Left Seat, Right Seat James[Sysop] 07-11-02 8
             RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-12-02 11
                  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat James[Sysop] 07-12-02 12
                       RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-13-02 13
                            RE: Left Seat, Right Seat TD[Guest] 07-13-02 14
                                 RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-14-02 17
                                      RE: Left Seat, Right Seat TD[Guest] 07-14-02 19
             RE: Left Seat, Right Seat BillC[Crew] 07-13-02 15
                  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat James[Sysop] 07-14-02 18
             RE: Left Seat, Right Seat BDEchols[Guest] 07-16-02 20
                  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat Mike_Greenwood[Admin] 07-16-02 21
                  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat James[Sysop] 07-16-02 22
        RE: Left Seat, Right Seat jerryrosie[Sysop] 07-12-02 10
  RE: Left Seat, Right Seat Ben_Chiu[Admin] 07-11-02 3
   RE: Left Seat, Right Seat BillC[Crew] 07-11-02 6
        RE: Left Seat, Right Seat Ben_Chiu[Admin] 07-11-02 7
        RE: Left Seat, Right Seat AlanParkinson[Guest] 07-11-02 9
             RE: Left Seat, Right Seat BillC[Crew] 07-13-02 16

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jerryrosie[Sysop]

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1. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-10-02, 20:26z 


> Why the Left hand seat for the PIC ? Is it tradition - or was it a
> manufacturers choice to start with ?

PMFJI but, my own guess here based on....nothing;). The position in the left seat allows the PIC to have a right hand free to 'twiddle' with the other controls, knobs and switches while handling the yoke with the left hand. Also, civilized folks drive their cars from the left hand seat, so, it is more normal that way.;)
>
> Why is the configuration reversed in heli's ?

Allows the PIC to control the collective with the right hand for finer control of the airship while forcing knob twiddling to be done with the left hand.... If 'driven from t he left seat, control of this twitchie animal would have to be done with the left hand while tuning radios etc with t he left. OK in a more stable fixed wing. Anyway...Uncivilized folk drive their cars from the right hand seat and helicopters aren't really airplanes anyway......(G,D & R)
>
> Is it also true that helis manufactured in the US rotate in the opposite
> direction to those of European origin ?

Yep. The Rotax engine in Plum Krazee is Austrian in manufacture and it turns in a counter clockwise direction when viewed from the pilot's seat. This means the torque, P factor, and gyro effect want to make the plane pull to the right, not to the left, as in US manufactured engines..... Why.....doanno...shrug.....
>

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2. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 00:47z 

Hi Jerry,

> Also, civilized folks drive their cars from the left hand seat,
> so, it is more normal that way.;)

Ahem, I don't think so...

> Anyway...Uncivilized
> folk drive their cars from the right hand seat and helicopters aren't
> really airplanes anyway......(G,D & R)

Hope you're a good runner!

I must try to remember to view your pictures tomorrow with IE.

Alan


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4. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 14:18z 

>>> Anyway...Uncivilized
> folk drive their cars from the right hand seat and helicopters aren't
> really airplanes anyway......(G,D & R)

Hope you're a good runner!<<

You will note that I was successful in insulting two large, rather fraternal, groups in just one simple sentence.....:)

***Reality - The refuge of those who can't handle simulation***
Cheers, Jerry (N94)

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5. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 17:40z 

Hi Jerry..

> The position in the left seat allows the PIC to have a right hand free to 'twiddle' with the other controls, knobs and switches while handling the yoke with the left hand.<

Roger that.

> Also, civilized folks drive their cars from the left hand seat, so, it is more normal that way.;)<

Heh heh. Now THAT is a matter of opinion <g>

> Anyway...Uncivilized folk drive their cars from the right hand seat and helicopters aren't really airplanes anyway...(G,D & R) <

See above <heh heh>
James might differ on the second point, however <g>

> Is it also true that helis manufactured in the US rotate in the opposite direction to those of European origin ?

Of course, I meant to include that magic word 'Rotors' in my question. However, should the tail rotor assume the 'inactive mode' <g> then my question would become very relevant <g>

> Yep. The Rotax engine in Plum Krazee is Austrian in manufacture and it turns in a counter clockwise direction when viewed from the pilot's seat. This means the torque, P factor, and gyro effect want to make the plane pull to the right, not to the left, as in US manufactured engines..... Why.....doanno...shrug.....

Thanks for that, Jerry... Being a ground based pilot <g> the torque factor didn't occur to me.

Love the name 'Plum Krazee, though !

Regards


BillC
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8. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 20:05z 

Hi Bill/Jerry,

>> Anyway...Uncivilized folk drive their cars from the right hand seat
and helicopters aren't really airplanes anyway...(G,D & R) <<

>> James might differ on the second point, however <g> <<

What's up with cabs in the sky, at least they don't need a mega runway or a road to roll down <LOL>

>> Is it also true that helis manufactured in the US rotate in the
opposite direction to those of European origin ? <<

Sort of true depending on make/model.

>> However, should the tail rotor assume the 'inactive mode' <g> then my
question would become very relevant <g> <<

In this case Bill, kiss yer butt goodbye mate as without that you have NO WAY of maintaining any form of forward flight as the direction of rotor will spin the cab in that direction. The chances of you walking away from this form of deactivation are mega slim. Where as if the main rotor disengages from it's drive shaft but staying attached to the main cab then you can do an emergency landing fairly swiftly and safely.

I'll accept your apology Jerry for the above dig at Heli's mate <VBG>

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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11. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-12-02, 11:59z 

>>I'll accept your apology Jerry for the above dig at Heli's mate <VBG><<

Sorta takes the fun out of insulting someone if you have to apologize afterward....<]:¬)

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Cheers, Jerry (N94)

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12. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-12-02, 18:47z 

>> Sorta takes the fun out of insulting someone if you have to apologize
afterward....<]:¬) <<

I forgot you don't have our sense of humor sorry mate (ROFL) Wonder what you guy's will think of George Micheals new Album/Video <LOL>

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13. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-13-02, 12:09z 

>>) Wonder what you guy's will think of George Micheals new Album/Video <LOL><<

Who's he? I stopped listening to pop music when Bing Crosby stopped recording......<]:¬) and, if he's a comedian, I stopped listening to them when four letter words started substituting for Bill Cosby's real humor....<G>

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14. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-13-02, 18:03z 

>>) Wonder what you guy's will think of George Micheals new Album/Video <LOL><<

Who's he? I stopped listening to pop music when Bing Crosby stopped recording......<]:¬) and, if he's a comedian, I stopped listening to them when four letter words started substituting for Bill Cosby's real humor....<G>

Bing Crosby recorded songs? I thought they just let him sing in the movies to distract the audience from Bob Hope's really bad jokes. He must have been one of the shining lights when the rpms were in the 78 range?

As for Cosby, I am not sure he has had anything good since Old Weird Harold and the 59th St. Bridge. He seems to have turned into a charicature of himself lately.


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17. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-14-02, 10:06z 

>>. He must have been one of the shining lights when the rpms were in the 78
range?<<

Yeah...Lots of things were better in those days....

>>As for Cosby, I am not sure he has had anything good since Old Weird
Harold and the 59th St. Bridge. He seems to have turned into a
charicature of himself lately.<<

I still prefer it to "comedy" routines where every other word starts with "F".....that takes a minimum of talent and creativity...... No prude, and I use the word myself when appropriate - but overuse tends to dilute its impact.... Just one man's opinion.....

***Reality - The refuge of those who can't handle simulation***
Cheers, Jerry (N94)

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19. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-14-02, 17:38z 

>>. He must have been one of the shining lights when the rpms were in the 78
range?<<

Yeah...Lots of things were better in those days....

so were there still organists playing along with the movies when you were a lad? What was it like to see a Valentino movie debut, Jerry? (ducking and running with a huge grin on my face)

>>As for Cosby, I am not sure he has had anything good since Old Weird
Harold and the 59th St. Bridge. He seems to have turned into a
charicature of himself lately.<<

I still prefer it to "comedy" routines where every other word starts with "F".....that takes a minimum of talent and creativity...... No prude, and I use the word myself when appropriate - but overuse tends to dilute its impact.... Just one man's opinion.....

I have to say that the majority of comedians out there, are really kinda pathetic. When it was a small circuit, the talent pool was deeper, or the visits were "special". Now, it seems like every town over 100k in population has one or two comedy clubs, and the talent pool is as shallow as Bud Selig's attempts to hide his balding pate.

Robin Williams, Richard Jeni, Larry Reeb, Paul Gilmartin, Steven Wright, hmmm.. I am seeing a trend here, and it appears like the Def Komedy Jam ain't part of the tour...

"TD - Virtual FAA investigators are on line 2, AGAIN!!!"

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15. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-13-02, 21:28z 

Hi James..

>>In this case Bill, kiss yer butt goodbye mate as without that you have
NO WAY of maintaining any form of forward flight as the direction of
rotor will spin the cab in that direction. The chances of you walking
away from this form of deactivation are mega slim. Where as if the main
rotor disengages from it's drive shaft but staying attached to the main
cab then you can do an emergency landing fairly swiftly and safely.<<

Thought that you would come in on that one, James.

I did not intend, BTW, to make light of such a possibility, that that the tail rotor should fail. Such an incident would indeed be catastrophic for any souls aboard.

I was trying to make light of the fact that I had omitted to write the question correctly <g>.

I'm surprised that Gunner didn't come in here with his 'beating the air into submission' <g>

Regards

BillC
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18. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-14-02, 11:28z 

Hi Bill,

No offence etc taken my friend I just thought I'd get that one in <G>.

>> I'm surprised that Gunner didn't come in here with his 'beating the air
into submission' <g> <<

There's still time for that yet <LOL>.

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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20. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-16-02, 13:48z 

Although James (Conman) made it pretty clear that my posts were not welcome on this message board (See my Tandem Rotor helicopter post) and after his lap puppy Dee Waldron was whipped back into line, I can’t resist trying to let a little reality creep in on this subject.

Every helicopter I ever flew had dual collectives. Granted they were all US military ships, but even the smallest presented the same control layout. Both pilots had the collective in his left hand, and the cyclic in his right hand. Unlike a fixed wing, in which I also have many hours, it made little difference whether you were seated in the right seat or the left. Perhaps I am wrong, and I am sure Conman will quickly rise to correct me as is his wont.

Every helicopter I flew, from the Hughes TH55, Bell H-47G, Huey UH1D, or the various models of the Chinook CH47 had full dual controls regardless of which side you were seated. In other words, whether seated on the right or the left, your left hand had a collective and your right hand was on the cyclic. In other words, both seats had a collective control on the left and a cyclic to your front.

To clear up some previous posts, the only control you could free your hand from was the collective, not the cyclic to tune radios, etc. The only reason you could let go with your left hand on the collective is that even the smallest trainer had some type of friction lock you could roll on. Without some type of autopilot only a pilot wishing to die could let go of the cyclic control in his right hand for more than seconds. The CH47 Chinook had even a more positive magnetic lock. To move the collective you had to press a hand grip button on the collective. Letting go of that button locked the collective.

A single pilot can lock the collective when at cruise, shift his left hand to the cyclic, and use his right hand to tune radios. Perhaps they have some other method in Britain and that could explain why James is so disrespectful of my ship and it’s supposed sad history in the RAF. In the US all the pilots and crew have trust in the CH47 Chinook and it’s continued use testifies to it’s utility and safety. Upgrades in progress will keep it in service for another 30 years. It will continue in service in the RAF also despite Conmans disrespect. The aircraft is used more heavily in the UK than the US. I am sure it will continue to be used to lift the wreckage from such ships as Conman flew.

Despite the dual controls, the Aircraft Commander (PIC) still sits on the left side in military helicopters as far as I know, but it is his prerogative to choose either side. Both sides are equally effective.

Barry Echols
Hook Pilot CH47

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21. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-16-02, 20:01z 

>>Although James (Conman) made it pretty clear that my posts were not
welcome on this message board <<

See my post in that section Barry.


--Greenie
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22. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-16-02, 21:40z 

Hi Barry,

>> Although James (Conman) made it pretty clear that my posts were not
welcome on this message board <<

Where was this stated?

Regards,

James (CONman) Anderson


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10. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-12-02, 11:58z 

>>Love the name 'Plum Krazee, though !<<

Confidentially....that's one of the reasons I bought it......

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3. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 02:15z 

Greetings Bill:

> Here's a couple of questions from a non-pilot...

These are good questions, and I'm not sure that most pilots know the answers either. While reading your questions, I was fascinated that you've covered many of the related issues.


> Why the Left hand seat for the PIC ? Is it tradition - or was it a
> manufacturers choice to start with ?

As far as I know the left seat for PIC originated when multiengine aircraft came about. You may recall that most single engine aircraft had tandem configurations. When the side-by-side configuration came about, it was when larger multiengine aircraft came about although you could probably find exceptions. Your question about engine rotation direction played a part in the left seat selection.

Prop-driven aircraft in the US have a left turning tendency due to four factors and I won't get into each, but one of the bigger reasons is engine/prop rotation produces asymmetrical thrust if there's any AOA (better known as "asymmetrical disc loading"--a rotating prop behaves like a solid disc). In a multiengine aircraft without counter rotating props, the critical engine (the engine that produces the most thrust on the side furthest from the centerline) creates the largest yawing force if the other engine goes out. One of the techniques used to counter engine out yaw is to bank into the engine producing power (good engine). With props that turn clockwise when viewed from the cockpit, the critical engine is the starboard engine. So if you lost the port engine, a bank to the right would be the steeper than if the engines were reversed. Having the PIC on the left side allows the him/her to have a better view outside when the aircraft is banked to the right.

Once PIC was designated as the left seat, other issues such as left traffic became standardized (again for better visibility outside to see the airport). Then why right turns for holding patterns? The story goes that you're less likely to become disoriented in right turns from the left seat and vice versa and the natural tendency is to bank towards the hand holding the yoke when pulling back on it.


> Why is the configuration reversed in heli's ?

I suppose only Igor Sikorsky (or perhaps CopterDr too) can answer this for sure, but I was always told that it was easier to have the collective lever linkage in the middle (less parts). The cyclic linkages need to be offset from the engine. But I don't know how true it is as I've never really peered into the inner workings of a heli with mechanical linkages.


> Is it also true that helis manufactured in the US rotate in the opposite
> direction to those of European origin ?

I don't know about all of Europe, but I know Russian prop planes are opposite the US standard, and some German WWII fighters were like that as well. I don't know why. It makes sense to me to have it the way the US has it (right rudder is required to counter left turning tendencies--and most folks are right legged/right handed, so their right leg is stronger).

Hope this helps!


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6. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 17:41z 

Hi Ben...

Thanks for such an informative, and comprehensive reply !

If, as I suspect, the prop/rotor direction is different over in this part of the world, then a pilot over here, having been familiar with driving a european aircraft, then has to drive an aircraft made over there <g> has a problem ?

I'll bet that does cause some difficulty, especially in smallish aircraft.

I can see that I shall hafta ask CH to consider bring out a force feedback yoke.....

Regards


BillC
Formby, UK

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7. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 18:48z 

Greetings Bill:

> If, as I suspect, the prop/rotor direction is different over in this
> part of the world, then a pilot over here, having been familiar with
> driving a european aircraft, then has to drive an aircraft made over
> there <g> has a problem ?

Well it depends. Most good pilots will use as much control input as is required to make the airplane do what they want it to do. It's only those that fly like robots (e.g. those that fly from memory and automatically add right rudder on takeoff for example, whether they need it or not) who'd have problems.


> I'll bet that does cause some difficulty, especially in smallish
> aircraft.

It'd also depend on what you're flying over there. I believe there are quite a few American built trainers like the 150/152 etc. over there.


> I can see that I shall hafta ask CH to consider bring out a force
> feedback yoke.....

Actually, while the force feedback yoke is a great idea (which was summarily dismissed when I recommended they make one using the technology from their FFB stick years ago), the effects we're talking about would be better represented by FFB rudder pedals. :)

Ben


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9. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-11-02, 20:45z 

Hi Bill,

> If, as I suspect, the prop/rotor direction is different over in this
> part of the world, ...

My understanding (if I still have any) was that the US have a standardised direction of engine rotation, whilst the rest of us just chuck in any old engine from this manufacturer or that, and let it turn whichever way it wants.

I've just had a look at the pictures I took at Old Warden when I met Kit and Melo - 6 aircraft anticlockwise, and 7 clockwise, as viewed from the rear. These were all European aircraft, with several dating back so far that standards probably hadn't been established.

I'd always assumed that the left seat was used to give a better view of the field in left hand circuits (those who drive on the wrong side of the road tend to prefer turning left) but as Ben says, the left seat may have come first with the left circuit resulting from that.

Alan


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16. "RE: Left Seat, Right Seat"
07-13-02, 21:28z 

> Hi Alan
>
> My understanding (if I still have any) was that the US have a
standardised direction of engine rotation, whilst the rest of us just
chuck in any old engine from this manufacturer or that, and let it turn
whichever way it wants....6 aircraft anticlockwise, and 7 clockwise, as viewed from the rear. These were all European aircraft, with several dating back so far that standards probably hadn't been established.<

> I'd always assumed that the left seat was used to give a better view of
the field in left hand circuits (those who drive on the wrong side of
the road tend to prefer turning left) but as Ben says, the left seat may
have come first with the left circuit resulting from that.<

Not being a pilot, and really not having thought about the technical aspect of why the left set/right seat configuration came about, I was just curious.

In a way, I could not fathom why fixed wing and helis were configured differently. Now that Ben & others have explained the whys etc, I can rest assured <g>.

Nice to talk to you again.

Regards

BillC
Formby, UK

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